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re: Racism in South Africa
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:33 am to fr33manator
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:33 am to fr33manator
Jesus 
0
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:34 am to Bayou_Tiger_225
quote:
I'm sure I'll be just fine. I'll let you know how it goes while you're busy stuck at work.
I'll be kicking it at a friend's place near Aspen this week.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:35 am to Bayou_Tiger_225
Since you are in Capetown why don’t you travel outside of Camps Bay, Bloubergstrand, City Bowl, or Waterkant and tell us how you fare because it is clear you are staying in the white bubble area. Sadly these neighborhoods will he popped in less than 10 years as the country gets more and more dangerous.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:37 am to fr33manator
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Stop trying to mentally gyrate this shite.
It's not false, not even close.
Disease was the first wave. What disease didn't claim (not only in central and north america but also the Caribbean islands). The organized, concerted domination and subjugation from western Europe did claim.
Who were these previous inhabitants"? fricking cavemen?
You need to stop.
Everyone knows indigenous people warred and fought each other. They didn't wipe out their own fricking race though.
You're either pretending not get it or you genuinely don't
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quote:
North american whites, for all practical purposes whiped out the indigenous peoples of the north american continent. For the educated, this is absolute undisputed truth.
I hope you don’t consider yourself educated, because this is patently false.
Disease, which no one fully understood or planned for, did the bulk of the work. The Indians were decimated before the Europeans came here in any real numbers.
Stop trying to mentally gyrate this shite.
It's not false, not even close.
Disease was the first wave. What disease didn't claim (not only in central and north america but also the Caribbean islands). The organized, concerted domination and subjugation from western Europe did claim.
quote:
And the ones you call “native Americans” came from Asia and slaughtered the previous inhabitants...
Who were these previous inhabitants"? fricking cavemen?
You need to stop.
Everyone knows indigenous people warred and fought each other. They didn't wipe out their own fricking race though.
You're either pretending not get it or you genuinely don't
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:41 am to Pandy Fackler
quote:
Everyone knows indigenous people warred and fought each other. They didn't wipe out their own fricking race though.
Didnt have enough time?
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:41 am to Pandy Fackler
quote:
North american whites committed. South african whites did not. The worm has turned and this generation of south african whites is now paying for the failures of previous generations.
Wrong everyone is paying the price in SA because the worm has allowed the feuding tribal worms to take over the entire apple. In 100 years SA will be akin to the Congo.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:42 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
Again, native peoples had dealt with epidemics before. What exactly made the colonial project different?
Uhhh... new diseases that they had never been exposed to before?
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Populations were displaced from their stable food supplies, and that displacement contributed significantly to diseases
The vast majority died before any truly large presence of Europeans arrived. You know this, right?
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The demographic replacement, in places like the Caribbean, had begun to occur before the arrival of major epidemics.
Wow. Uh. No. No it did not.
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Violence, enslavement and disruption of traditional lifeways contributed to that demographic depression, and all this occurred before smallpox arrived, in the 16th century.
So, you’re saying the white man did a genocide on the natives before the 1500s?
Aka. Before any real number of Europeans were even in the hemisphere?
That’s a bold position to take.
Still waiting on my links that support your claim.
quote:
There is evidence that they did. From the Journal of William Trent, 1763. "Out of our regard to them we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect." Also the Siege of Fort Pitt is probably the first instance of biological warfare, and indicates that settlers had some understanding of disease mechanisms.
I thought you said this happened pre 1500s? Which is it? Oh, and of course, you know, by the time this happened over 90% of the native population was gone. And the Europeans had discovered that they weren’t resistant.
So. Like I said. 90% were wiped out by disease long before any real number of Europeans got to America.
This post was edited on 5/19/19 at 11:44 am
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:42 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
quote:
And the ones you call “native Americans” came from Asia and slaughtered the previous inhabitants...
Which previous inhabitants of the Americas? There isn't evidence of settlement before 20,000 years ago, to my knowledge.
He must mean cavemen.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:43 am to HarveyBanger
The guy dropkicked Arnold because he was white?
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:45 am to MrLSU
quote:
Wrong everyone is paying the price in SA because the worm has allowed the feuding tribal worms to take over the entire apple. In 100 years SA will be akin to the Congo.
I honestly don't believe it will take 100 years.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:45 am to Pandy Fackler
quote:
They didn't wipe out their own fricking race though.
Entire civilizations have been wiped out and relocated/enslaved throughout history
It's the history to of mankind, not race
Which races have been wiped out?
This post was edited on 5/19/19 at 11:49 am
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:46 am to Ancient Astronaut
quote:
The guy dropkicked Arnold because he was white?
If I were a betting man, I'd say yes
Posted on 5/19/19 at 11:57 am to crazy4lsu
Since this is an extremely broad topic, I'll try to focus on works that give the best overviews.
David Stannard's work American Holocaust is among the first to compile the evidence and challenge traditional notions of colonization myths. Benjamin Madley's An American Genocide continues int his tradition. Andres Resendez does fantastic work on the enslavement of Native peoples. David D. Smits The Frontier Army and the Destruction of the Buffalo: 1865-1883 does a wonderful job documenting US Army policy after the CW. Benjamin Keen's Life and Labor in Ancient Mexico (or one of his other works, I can't remember) challenge the notion of disease, by itself, decimating native populations.
This is the beginning of a list. It'll take me hours to compile a real bibliography.
David Stannard's work American Holocaust is among the first to compile the evidence and challenge traditional notions of colonization myths. Benjamin Madley's An American Genocide continues int his tradition. Andres Resendez does fantastic work on the enslavement of Native peoples. David D. Smits The Frontier Army and the Destruction of the Buffalo: 1865-1883 does a wonderful job documenting US Army policy after the CW. Benjamin Keen's Life and Labor in Ancient Mexico (or one of his other works, I can't remember) challenge the notion of disease, by itself, decimating native populations.
This is the beginning of a list. It'll take me hours to compile a real bibliography.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 12:02 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Since this is an extremely broad topic, I'll try to focus on works that give the best overviews.
David Stannard's work American Holocaust is among the first to compile the evidence and challenge traditional notions of colonization myths. Benjamin Madley's An American Genocide continues int his tradition. Andres Resendez does fantastic work on the enslavement of Native peoples. David D. Smits The Frontier Army and the Destruction of the Buffalo: 1865-1883 does a wonderful job documenting US Army policy after the CW. Benjamin Keen's Life and Labor in Ancient Mexico (or one of his other works, I can't remember) challenge the notion of disease, by itself, decimating native populations.
This is the beginning of a list. It'll take me hours to compile a real bibliography.
The ken burns documentary "the west" does an incredible job objectively telling the story of westward expansion and the toll it took on native peoples.
He very effectively tells both sides of it.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 12:04 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
This is the beginning of a list. It'll take me hours to compile a real bibliography.
Cool. Remember though, over 90% of natives were dead by 1700. Anything after that is simply mopping up the leftovers from the massive disease die off.
So, your whole, but but but smallpox blankies in 1763 is irrelevant.
Sooo. I do hope you focus on your “pre 1500s genocide” that you did so claim. And not cherry pick shite from nearly 300 years later when the native population was about 10% of what it was, pre disease.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 12:05 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Which previous inhabitants of the Americas? There isn't evidence of settlement before 20,000 years ago, to my knowledge.
New studies have found evidence of even earlier inhabitants than the Indians. I’ll have to look
Posted on 5/19/19 at 12:05 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Uhhh... new diseases that they had never been exposed to before?
Again, the issue was demographic recovery.
quote:
The vast majority died before any truly large presence of Europeans arrived. You know this, right?
Again, this notion has been challenged from the 70s onward. This is what the scholarship says. And you realize that the 90% number isn't all that well-sourced, right?
quote:
Wow. Uh. No. No it did not.
In the Caribbean, yes it did. The first noted instance of smallpox in Hispaniola was 1518 or so, more than 20 years after the colonization process began. This particular outbreak occurred in African slaves before it spread to the population at large.
quote:
So, you’re saying the white man did a genocide on the natives before the 1500s?
No. The demographic depression started before smallpox and other diseases were introduced.
quote:
So. Like I said. 90% were wiped out by disease long before any real number of Europeans got to America.
My bibliography is below. I'm skeptical that you'll find any modern scholar who believes the 90% myth, as it isn't well-sourced.
Posted on 5/19/19 at 12:06 pm to Pandy Fackler
quote:
The ken burns documentary "the west" does an incredible job objectively telling the story of westward expansion and the toll it took on native peoples.
The native peoples had already been all but destroyed by disease to the rate of around 90% population loss by the 1700s.
Why are you attempting to accredit westward expansion for the “native peoples genocide” 200+ years after the genocide happened?
Posted on 5/19/19 at 12:10 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Again, the issue was demographic recovery.
Hard to do when everyone is sick and dying from disease.
quote:
Again, this notion has been challenged from the 70s onward. This is what the scholarship says. And you realize that the 90% number isn't all that well-sourced, right?
All of your examples come post 1700s and up til damn near the 1900s. HUNDREDS of years post genocide.
quote:
In the Caribbean, yes it did. The first noted instance of smallpox in Hispaniola was 1518 or so, more than 20 years after the colonization process began. This particular outbreak occurred in African slaves before it spread to the population at large.
You do know that 1518 is in the 16th century, correct? Your claim was that this happens in the 15th century. As seen
quote:
and all this occurred before smallpox arrived, in the 16th century.
quote:
My bibliography is below. I'm skeptical that you'll find any modern scholar who believes the 90% myth, as it isn't well-sourced.
Muh westward expansion and the buffalos
Posted on 5/19/19 at 12:11 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Remember though, over 90% of natives were dead by 1700.
Can you link me on this? Something by a modern scholar.
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So, your whole, but but but smallpox blankies in 1763 is irrelevant.
No it's not irrelevant
You said that settlers didn't use smallpox on purpose. I was responding to that claim. Don't be dishonest please.
quote:
I do hope you focus on your “pre 1500s genocide” that you did so claim.
You want me to focus specifically on this? My book list earlier was about the American continent specifically. I can provide another for the Caribbean. I don't see the point though. You aren't entering this conversation in good faith. Your claims are repeated without evidence, but for some reason I have to provide a bibliography, a bibliography you'll never read. I can provide sources for all my claims, but finding the book, finding the page, re-reading the context all take time. For what purpose? To convince someone who is ill-read on the topic, from a scholarly POV, of something which is in the academic mainstream now?
I'll provide the Caribbean reading list anyhow, in the off-chance someone will find some benefit.
This post was edited on 5/19/19 at 12:14 pm
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