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re: Pediatrician's group on gender ideology
Posted on 3/21/16 at 3:06 pm to Hog on the Hill
Posted on 3/21/16 at 3:06 pm to Hog on the Hill
Like I said, I'm only taking your claim at face value and haven't read the original source of what you are saying. But it sounds like a pretty benign, broad assertion to me. I don't see anything about them delineating a list of religious codes or conclusions about moral objectivity. Surely you can agree that there seems to be a greater calling associated with the medical profession (and research by extension)? Even a cursory glance at other medical groups' code of ethics will reveal some basic acknowledgement of acting in a morally/ethically upright way.
Also, the difference between morality and ethics in muddled, so I'm not sure why you are claiming it's an entirely different concept.
Also, the difference between morality and ethics in muddled, so I'm not sure why you are claiming it's an entirely different concept.
1
Posted on 3/21/16 at 3:15 pm to Lou Pai
quote:There is a massive distinction between stating that physicians should act in a moral and ethical way, and saying that medical research is not good unless it is informed by morality. Do you understand this distinction?
Like I said, I'm only taking your claim at face value and haven't read the original source of what you are saying. But it sounds like a pretty benign, broad assertion to me. I don't see anything about them delineating a list of religious codes or conclusions about moral objectivity. Surely you can agree that there seems to be a greater calling associated with the medical profession (and research by extension)? Even a cursory glance at other medical groups' code of ethics will reveal some basic acknowledgement of acting in a morally/ethically upright way.
Good science speaks for itself and needs no consideration of morality. Science may inform our morality, but our morality does not inform science.
quote:That's not what I'm doing. I'm saying that the Hippocratic Oath is an ethical/moral statement and has nothing to do with science or the scientific method. You're comparing apples to oranges. The Hippocratic Oath has nothing to do with judging the value or validity of science. The fact that you brought it up suggests to me that you don't understand what you're trying to debate.
Also, the difference between morality and ethics in muddled, so I'm not sure why you are claiming it's an entirely different concept.
This post was edited on 3/21/16 at 3:17 pm
Posted on 3/21/16 at 3:19 pm to Kcoyote
quote:Fairly normal? Really?
However, from that statement gender confusion can be a fairly normal process of a child's life,
quote:of course they are.
The people that do not are not mentally ill
quote:Some should-some shouldn't.
and they should be able to make their own decisions regarding their body.
quote:Terrible comparison.
They are not freaks, just as much as anyone else who doesn't feel comfortable with oneself is not a freak.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 3:42 pm to Hog on the Hill
Medical research can't be entirely disaggregated from the general moral questions that surround the practice of medicine. You're dealing with people. This isn't trying to detect gravitational waves (even that can have arguably a moral question), this is something that impacts humans' health, and often involves human subjects. Otherwise, we wouldn't have various codes of ethics and treatises in the practice of medicine, as well as research.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:08 pm to Lou Pai
quote:Dude you're still not getting it. There is a difference between the "practice of medicine" and medical research. Let's take a clinical protocol for example: why on earth would you ever subject the outcomes of a clinical protocol to questions of morality when deciding the value or validity of said outcomes? You practice morality and ethics as a matter of course in professional life, but you don't let moral questions bleed into the evaluation of scientific research.
Medical research can't be entirely disaggregated from the general moral questions that surround the practice of medicine. You're dealing with people. This isn't trying to detect gravitational waves (even that can have arguably a moral question), this is something that impacts humans' health, and often involves human subjects. Otherwise, we wouldn't have various codes of ethics and treatises in the practice of medicine, as well as research.
The rules of the scientific method are no different for medicine than they are for experimental physics. The scientific method is the scientific method.
You're talking about something completely different from what I'm talking about. The Hippocratic Oath is paramount to practicing good medicine, but it has nothing to do with evaluating research.
With that said, of course there are ethical standards for determining how research should be done. But you don't use morality or ethics to evaluate research. That's the distinction I'm making.
edit: And no, research regarding gravitational waves is not subject to moral questions
This post was edited on 3/21/16 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:28 pm to Hog on the Hill
How does a statement about being informed by morality compromise the scientific method? Seems like you are really entrenched in this notion of painting them as anti-science and are reaching big time.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:28 pm to AlxTgr
That's your opinion, but it isn't the opinion of physicians, which is what this thread is about.
quote:
The people that do not are not mentally ill
of course they are.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:31 pm to AlxTgr
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:34 pm to Kcoyote
quote:
That's your opinion, but it isn't the opinion of physicians, which is what this thread is about.
quote:
GID is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[7] and DSM-5 (called gender dysphoria).
There is coverage under some plans for treatment. if it's not an illness, what is being treated?
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:36 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
4. Puberty is not a disease and puberty-blocking hormones can be dangerous. Reversible or not, puberty- blocking hormones induce a state of disease – the absence of puberty – and inhibit growth and fertility in a previously biologically healthy child.
Stopping puberty is a thing? Like some sort of treatment for gender confusion?
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:39 pm to Hog on the Hill
AAP is a lefty organization. But, yeah the ACP is a reaction to it.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:40 pm to AlxTgr
Gender atypia by itself is not a disorder. Dysphoria or distress from that is what is being treated. Gender atypical behavior or feeling like you're not one's gender by itself is not a disorder. It is only treated when the individual feels that the impact from it is harming their quality of life, or has led to a comorbid condition like depression, bipolar disorder, or to thoughts of suicide.
You can continue to argue about it, but I'm in medical school writing off my slides on the subject.
You can continue to argue about it, but I'm in medical school writing off my slides on the subject.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:42 pm to Kcoyote
Well that's a wrap guys, this guy is in med school and has the ability to define what a mental disorder is.
Go ahead and pack it in. I RA'd to delete the thread in light of this FYI.
Go ahead and pack it in. I RA'd to delete the thread in light of this FYI.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:45 pm to Lou Pai
I do not have that ability. I do have the ability to read on the subject, remember what I've been taught, and to respond as I have. Again, I don't make the rules, but if you're using the DSM as your barometer for what a mental disorder is, then your view of gender identity does not coincide with it.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:47 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a socially conservative association of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States. The College was founded in 2002 by a group of pediatricians including Joseph Zanga, a past president of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), as a protest against the AAP's support for adoption by gay couples.[1][2] The group's membership has been estimated at between 60 and 200 members.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:48 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Here come the libtards.....
Yeah, so many of those on here.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:49 pm to Kcoyote
quote:I am just trying to learn, not really argue. It seems to me what you're saying is a distinction without a difference. Also, if it's just the distress, it doesn't seem like the word "disorder" would be used. I am open to more of your thoughts, but you're not very convincing yet.
You can continue to argue about it,
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:50 pm to Kcoyote
The interesting thing about the DSM is that it is very much influenced by politics.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:56 pm to Kcoyote
The fact that it has been recently reclassified and further expounded upon hints at an element of subjectivity in the application/interpretation of these rules.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 4:57 pm to AlxTgr
quote:
I am just trying to learn, not really argue. It seems to me what you're saying is a distinction without a difference. Also, if it's just the distress, it doesn't seem like the word "disorder" would be used. I am open to more of your thoughts, but you're not very convincing yet.
Distress is a significant part of a mental disorder. There are pages and pages of the DSM devoted to a diagnosis based around distress.
There's a whole idea of things being egosyntonic and egodystonic. Things that are egosyntonic coincide with an individual's thoughts and ideas. Some disorders are both egosyntonic and harmful (think personality disorders like Narcissistic personality disorder, patients don't think there is a problem that they behave like a dick) or egosyntonic and not harmful (not a true disorder like being gender atypical). Things can also be egodystonic and harmful (don't coincide with your thoughts or ideas, think Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Patients know they need to stop turning the light switch on and off, but they just can't) which is what Gender Dysphoria is classified as. The patient's ideas about himself or herself cause acute distress, and can lead to things like depression and suicide.
This post was edited on 3/21/16 at 4:58 pm
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