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Started By
Message
re: New York Times - Captain Crozier Is a Hero
Posted on 4/4/20 at 5:13 am to OweO
Posted on 4/4/20 at 5:13 am to OweO
quote:How can you be so wrong so often on so many diverse topics?
It seems like he was concerned and felt like his people were at risk and did what he could to get them the help they needed. Sometimes you have to break the rules.
It’s as if you were actually trying to be wrong.
Chris, are you trying to always be wrong? Seriously.
Because you’re good at it.
(Aside: I’m to the point now in my life that if given enough information on a situation, I don’t have to see an opinion poll or how it’s trending, I can make up my mind and generally I don’t ever move from that decision unless new information comes in or the scenario drastically changes. OR I can wait for OweO’s opinion and take a differing opinion than he does. Usually that puts me in the same place as if I’d have personally weighed the facts.)
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Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:34 am to EarlyCuyler3
quote:
Protocol and unquestioningly following the chain of command is way more important than caring about them! There's a good comrade.
Clearly you have never served your country because if you had you wouldn’t make such a ridiculous statement.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:36 am to SloaneRanger
quote:
No one on that boat should have been allowed to step foot in any asian country.
In any country at all. They should have stayed at sea until the pandemic was over, or at least well under control.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 7:57 am to Penrod
The extent of COVID proliferation wasn't fully understood when they made the Vietnam port call. According to the original SF Chronicle story "at the time there were only 16 coronavirus cases in northern Vietnam and the port was in the central part of the country."
Posted on 4/4/20 at 8:09 am to TorchtheFlyingTiger
You serious Clark? As I recall, the port call was in March. The virus had been a huge story for a long time and there were already cases in the US. Anyone with any sense would have known that this was a major risk. I'd like to know just how this was permitted to happen.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 8:14 am to biglego
quote:
NYT is only lionizing this guy bc they think it’s anti-Trump. That’s all it’s ever about.
100% correct
And also 100% correct is this is the only reason the tRumpkins are hating on him.
Neither group has a shred of integrity left at this point.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 8:18 am to Grateful Reb
quote:
You do realize the navy has fatasses who have random jobs such as being a mechanic for a ship, right? Enlisted guys are for the most part in very average shape.
There are fitness requirements for the entire time you are in any branch of the service at least for enlisted folks. There is a maximum weight to height for the Navy, if your weight exceeds the max for your height, they check your body far content though the limits are 22 or 23 % for males depending on over/under 40.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 8:18 am to Gator5220
quote:
Clearly you have never served your country because if you had you wouldn’t make such a ridiculous statement.
Every sailor on the ship IS serving and had the Captain's back. How do you reconcile that?
Posted on 4/4/20 at 8:24 am to Sao
quote:
Every sailor on the ship IS serving and had the Captain's back. How do you reconcile that?
Because in that bubble he had their back. But by leaking his letter to the press he compromised a warship by announcing to our enemies we have a carrier effectively out of commission.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 8:26 am to Sao
quote:
Every sailor on the ship IS serving and had the Captain's back.
Not true. The junior sailors absolutely loved the guy, that much is true. However, people in the senior enlisted and officer ranks aren't as happy with the decisions he made because they are trained to see more of the big picture than those more junior to them.
And even if he did have the support of the entire crew, that doesn't necessarily means he made the right decision by doing what he did. The Roosevelt had been in the middle of a deployment. What do most sailors want to do when they are on deployment? They want to pull into port ASAP. By doing what he did, those sailors got their wish. Of course he's going to be popular with the rank and file.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 8:30 am to Grateful Reb
Crozier is a pussy. He's a schmuck on wheels......
Posted on 4/4/20 at 8:31 am to SloaneRanger
WHO didnt declare pandemic until a week later. US hadn't restricted visitors from European nations with large outbreaks until after that (and we were roundly criticized by international partners for doing so). You're suffering from "creeping determinism." I just read a good Malcolm Gladwell piece about it this morning. New Yorker Connecting the Dots
Even now there's not national consensus about social isolation and lockdown. But let's lockdown members of the all volunteer force anytime theres a minor risk. It's that kinda overly risk averse thinking that has troops frequently put on restrictions and confined to base etc... Leaders have to strike a balance between mitigating off duty risks and preserving morale, good order and discipline. Very easy to pass judgement weeks later and lay the blame from your vantage point.
Even now there's not national consensus about social isolation and lockdown. But let's lockdown members of the all volunteer force anytime theres a minor risk. It's that kinda overly risk averse thinking that has troops frequently put on restrictions and confined to base etc... Leaders have to strike a balance between mitigating off duty risks and preserving morale, good order and discipline. Very easy to pass judgement weeks later and lay the blame from your vantage point.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 8:43 am to TorchtheFlyingTiger
You are reaching big time. It is an aircraft carrier packed full of sailors. No member of the crew should have been allowed to step foot in Vietnam in the face of this pandemic. Period. Ordinarily, you are right--I have no business second guessing the decisions of military officers. On this particular issue though I'd like to have some answers because this is just a head scratcher.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 8:47 am to SloaneRanger
I believe I've read the first cases onboard didnt pop up until aprox 14 days later. If that's the case it's just as likely it was transmitted after the ship was underway. Besides, the crew had diplomatic events scheduled a part of their mission to reassure partners and demonstrate US resolve in the region.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 9:11 am to SloaneRanger
Were you also calling for Mardi Gras to be cancelled because that's exactly when the port call occurred.
Hindsight = 20/20
Edit: My mistake 5 Mar was Mardi Gras 2019. Between 25 Feb (Mardi Gras 20) and 5 Mar there was still no consensus that there was a high risk in countries with few cases. Leaders were still operating under a pre-COVID paradigm.
Hindsight = 20/20
Edit: My mistake 5 Mar was Mardi Gras 2019. Between 25 Feb (Mardi Gras 20) and 5 Mar there was still no consensus that there was a high risk in countries with few cases. Leaders were still operating under a pre-COVID paradigm.
This post was edited on 4/4/20 at 10:46 am
Posted on 4/4/20 at 9:14 am to OweO
quote:
People who are healthy will be just fine if they receive treatment. If they need to be on a ventilator once its out of their system they will be good. But if they don't receive treatment then their chance of dying rises.
Not so factual. If you end up needing a ventilator with this one, there is a >70% chance you’re through.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 9:17 am to SloaneRanger
When I was in ROTC at the Citadel we had these type of leadership discussions on a fairly frequent basis. The question boils down to where do you allegiances lie, to your chain of command or to your men. On one hand, you are obligated to follow orders (well defend the constitution per your oath of office), while on the other hand you are obligated to protect the soldiers or sailors under your command from undue harm. One could argue that this virus is an enemy of the state which you swore an oath to defend our country against.
While Capt Crozier defied the UCOMJ by distributing a memo that he was not supposed to, you could also argue that the ultimate show of leadership is to risk ones life or career to protect those you are in charge of. As already posted in this thread, unless you've experienced it, most folks do not understand how confining the conditions inside a Navy ship really are. It's an environment where the virus could spread, rapidly.
One very basic concept of leadership. particularly military leadership, is that of Accountability. For example, the 3 cornerstones of Marine Corps leadership are Authority, Accountability, Responsibility. Former Navy SEAL Jocko Willink calls is "Extreme ownership". or the practice of owning everything in your world. This is exactly what Capt Crozier is doing. He's risking everything, including his Navy pension for the health and safety of his men. Like it or not, this is a perfect example of true leadership.
Folks on here suggesting that he follow orders blindly do have a point. However, there is a difference between a leader and a follower. While being a good follower is necessary in a military environment, it is not leadership. In wartime the military preaches that one the ground commanders frequently have the ability to adjust attack plans on the fly to counteract the fluidity of a dynamic and changing battlefield. The field commander has the most intimate knowledge of the current situation and having to run orders up the chain of command could/would take too long given the speed that things happen in battle. How is this situation different?
Captain Crozier was the commander closest to the situation. He could see how rapidly the situation was deteriorating. He made a call, at his own expense, to protect as many of his men as he could. He was willing to take personal risk in the process.
While I won't go as far as to call him a "hero", I think he made a fine leadership decision based on the situation he found himself in. If a news outlet other than the NYT had made the call many on here would have a different opinion of the situation.
While Capt Crozier defied the UCOMJ by distributing a memo that he was not supposed to, you could also argue that the ultimate show of leadership is to risk ones life or career to protect those you are in charge of. As already posted in this thread, unless you've experienced it, most folks do not understand how confining the conditions inside a Navy ship really are. It's an environment where the virus could spread, rapidly.
One very basic concept of leadership. particularly military leadership, is that of Accountability. For example, the 3 cornerstones of Marine Corps leadership are Authority, Accountability, Responsibility. Former Navy SEAL Jocko Willink calls is "Extreme ownership". or the practice of owning everything in your world. This is exactly what Capt Crozier is doing. He's risking everything, including his Navy pension for the health and safety of his men. Like it or not, this is a perfect example of true leadership.
Folks on here suggesting that he follow orders blindly do have a point. However, there is a difference between a leader and a follower. While being a good follower is necessary in a military environment, it is not leadership. In wartime the military preaches that one the ground commanders frequently have the ability to adjust attack plans on the fly to counteract the fluidity of a dynamic and changing battlefield. The field commander has the most intimate knowledge of the current situation and having to run orders up the chain of command could/would take too long given the speed that things happen in battle. How is this situation different?
Captain Crozier was the commander closest to the situation. He could see how rapidly the situation was deteriorating. He made a call, at his own expense, to protect as many of his men as he could. He was willing to take personal risk in the process.
While I won't go as far as to call him a "hero", I think he made a fine leadership decision based on the situation he found himself in. If a news outlet other than the NYT had made the call many on here would have a different opinion of the situation.
This post was edited on 4/4/20 at 9:21 am
Posted on 4/4/20 at 9:22 am to OweO
quote:
It seems like he was concerned and felt like his people were at risk and did what he could to get them the help they needed. Sometimes you have to break the rules.
So did he need to send an email (bypassing his boss that has a stateroom on the same aircraft carrier) via unsecured means and CC over 20 people that are not in the “need to know”?
Posted on 4/4/20 at 9:29 am to Grateful Reb
I think lots of folks are trying to make this more than it is. If you think this Captain's decision to sacrifice his own career for his crew's welfare had to do anything with his support or dislike of Trump, you live in a fantasy world.
In my small slice of military experience, there are many "strategic" decision makers so detached from the actual operations, they are also incapable of making a decision without some kind of group buy-in, so no one is to blame.
A Captain on a boat with a rapidly deteriorating health situation of his crew, not a ton of good information on the virus, he isn't afforded the same "group think" meeting time. He doesn't have time to put together some power-point slides and talking papers with COAs, so we can make a decision after we hit the gym, eat lunch and finally read all the slides in the slide deck, have some meeting where everyone wants to hear their own voice for 2 hours and the result is, "let's continue to monitor the situation."
The Captain likely ran into the above, and had to make the decision to fall on his sword to save his crew. I'm not going to say the guy is faultless in the entire ordeal, I'm just saying I understand. I admire his self-sacrifice.
Anyone suggesting the Navy is a "healthy" force is clueless. Fatties in a Navy uniform is pretty normal, I think vaping or smoking is mandatory too.
In my small slice of military experience, there are many "strategic" decision makers so detached from the actual operations, they are also incapable of making a decision without some kind of group buy-in, so no one is to blame.
A Captain on a boat with a rapidly deteriorating health situation of his crew, not a ton of good information on the virus, he isn't afforded the same "group think" meeting time. He doesn't have time to put together some power-point slides and talking papers with COAs, so we can make a decision after we hit the gym, eat lunch and finally read all the slides in the slide deck, have some meeting where everyone wants to hear their own voice for 2 hours and the result is, "let's continue to monitor the situation."
The Captain likely ran into the above, and had to make the decision to fall on his sword to save his crew. I'm not going to say the guy is faultless in the entire ordeal, I'm just saying I understand. I admire his self-sacrifice.
Anyone suggesting the Navy is a "healthy" force is clueless. Fatties in a Navy uniform is pretty normal, I think vaping or smoking is mandatory too.
Posted on 4/4/20 at 9:30 am to Grateful Reb
Tom Hanks will be playing him. No doubt!
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