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re: Military History Question Regarding the Invasion of Poland 1939
Posted on 5/7/25 at 8:20 pm to TigerRoyale
Posted on 5/7/25 at 8:20 pm to TigerRoyale
quote:
The Lend Least Act was in March 1941 well before Pearl Harbor. The FDR administration "Arsenal of Democracy" gave 10 billion in aid to Soviet Russia.
True, but Lend Lease was passed to send aid to Britain. Russia was an afterthought in 1941, and only after Hitler invaded Russia in June of 1941. I did not know that we sent aid to Russia before we were at war with Germany, so that is interesting. But our first aid to Russia was in October of 1941, 8 months after Lend Lease passed and only 2 months before Pearl Harbor. England started sending aid to Russia very shortly after Hitler invaded them, so basically our Lend Lease to Russia cut out the step of shipping to England, then to Russia. As Churchill said on the German invasion of Russia “If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons.”
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Posted on 5/7/25 at 8:30 pm to TigerRoyale
No one has mentioned that Hitler had already taken over Austria and the Sudatenland. He then promised GB and France he wouldn’t take any more land. He then invaded Poland. In addition to the treaty between Poland and GB, this was a major factor in war declaration from France and GB.
P.S. You could shove Chamberlain’s head in a toilet and he would still give you half of Europe.
P.S. You could shove Chamberlain’s head in a toilet and he would still give you half of Europe.
Posted on 5/7/25 at 8:54 pm to TigerRoyale
Britain and France told Hitler after he took Czechoslovakia that further aggression would constitute an act of war. Hitler didn’t believe it after Munich. Additionally, the Soviet incursion into Poland was limited in scope and fairly inconsequential. The Russians had previously been opposed to Germany in the First World War, and France and Britain hoped to persuade Stalin to form an alliance against Hitler again.
Posted on 5/7/25 at 9:02 pm to Riverside
quote:
Additionally, the Soviet incursion into Poland was limited in scope and fairly inconsequential.
Tell that to the Poles. The Soviets executed more of them pre-Barbarossa than the Germans did. It was anything but inconsequential. You can start your reading with the Katyn Massacre. The NKVD even rounded up priests and Boy Scout troops for execution. I have wondered if the comment by the KGB officer in Red Dawn about one of the Wolverines being "part of an elite paramilitary organization", ie, Eagle Scout, was a nod to those events.
This post was edited on 5/7/25 at 9:10 pm
Posted on 5/7/25 at 9:07 pm to TigerHornII
The bulk of the Polish army was thrown against the Germans. After action genocide is another matter, but that doesn’t change the reality that it was Germany who destroyed the Polish resistance, not the Soviets.
I do agree that the Stalin regime’s record of genocide makes the Nazis look like a JV team.
I do agree that the Stalin regime’s record of genocide makes the Nazis look like a JV team.
Posted on 5/7/25 at 9:28 pm to TigerRoyale
One of the dirty little secrets of WWII is that the Soviets invaded and either totally subjugated, or at least carved up, plenty of counties. Here’s a scoresheet up to the launch of Barbarossa…
Germany
Austria 1938
Czechoslovakia 1938
Poland 1939
Denmark 1940
Norway 1940
Holland 1940
Belgium 1940
Luxembourg 1940
France 1940
Yugoslavia 1941
Greece 1941
Soviet Union
Poland: 1939
Finland: 1939
Latvia: 1940
Estonia: 1940
Lithuania: 1940
Romania 1940
And if we look a little further back…
Ukraine 1917
Armenia 1920
Azerbaijan 1920
Georgia 1921
Mongolia 1921
China 1934
Germany
Austria 1938
Czechoslovakia 1938
Poland 1939
Denmark 1940
Norway 1940
Holland 1940
Belgium 1940
Luxembourg 1940
France 1940
Yugoslavia 1941
Greece 1941
Soviet Union
Poland: 1939
Finland: 1939
Latvia: 1940
Estonia: 1940
Lithuania: 1940
Romania 1940
And if we look a little further back…
Ukraine 1917
Armenia 1920
Azerbaijan 1920
Georgia 1921
Mongolia 1921
China 1934
Posted on 5/7/25 at 9:58 pm to TigerRoyale
One of the strangest stories ever told is that France and the UK plunged Europe back into war only 20 years after the Great War over Germany invading a country that had existed for only 20 years. People don’t think about how absurd that is.
Posted on 5/7/25 at 10:47 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
And if we look a little further back…
Ukraine 1917
Armenia 1920
Azerbaijan 1920
Georgia 1921
Mongolia 1921
China 1934
Also,
Estonia 1918
Poland 1919
And, of course, there's another long list after WWII was "officially" over.
Posted on 5/7/25 at 11:27 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
And if we look a little further back… Ukraine 1917
What they did with the Ukrainian famine makes the current engagement look like a game of tag on the playground.
Posted on 5/8/25 at 5:04 am to TigerRoyale
quote:
They both invaded at the same time but lend lease and support went to Russia.
Are you under the impression we started lend lease as soon as they invaded Poland?
quote:
Germany didn't invade Russia
In '41 they did and that's when lend lease started. We couldn't afford for the Soviets to fall to Germany.
Posted on 5/8/25 at 6:38 am to TigerRoyale
Russia was on everyone’s shite list, but Hitler was seen as the bigger threat. Plus, as much as an anti-communist Churchill was, he did not think the Russian pact with Germany was strong enough that Russia would back Germany unless war was also declared on Russia…and likely not even then.
But, it encouraged Russia to invade Finland, and Churchill did consider sending troops to back Finland. When Germany invaded Russia, Churchill - ever the pragmatist - backed Russia as leverage against Germany. Churchill new history, and he knew Germany was likely screwed when they kicked off Barbarossa.
But, it encouraged Russia to invade Finland, and Churchill did consider sending troops to back Finland. When Germany invaded Russia, Churchill - ever the pragmatist - backed Russia as leverage against Germany. Churchill new history, and he knew Germany was likely screwed when they kicked off Barbarossa.
Posted on 5/8/25 at 7:23 am to TigerRoyale
The Soviets did not invade until two weeks later, but the point remains. This destroys in its crib the myth that WWII was a war fought for some high minded or altruistic purpose. It was a war fought for the same reasons most all wars are and that's power.
Germany's rise in geopolitical power was always a problem in Europe to the old powers. Hitler openly sought to reorganize the European power structure in Germany's favor, and the existing power dynamic was something the British and French Empires obviously were not keen to see changed. The USSR was an afterthought at the time but the West was willing to overlook all the criminal aggression of the Soviets for the entirety of the war, including the aggression they committed while being partnered with Germany.
Germany's rise in geopolitical power was always a problem in Europe to the old powers. Hitler openly sought to reorganize the European power structure in Germany's favor, and the existing power dynamic was something the British and French Empires obviously were not keen to see changed. The USSR was an afterthought at the time but the West was willing to overlook all the criminal aggression of the Soviets for the entirety of the war, including the aggression they committed while being partnered with Germany.
Posted on 5/8/25 at 8:21 am to Riverside
quote:
The bulk of the Polish army was thrown against the Germans. After action genocide is another matter, but that doesn’t change the reality that it was Germany who destroyed the Polish resistance, not the Soviets.
Calling what happened "inconsequential" is just wrong, no matter how you slice it.
Posted on 5/8/25 at 8:37 am to TigerRoyale
quote:
If the Germans and Soviets both invaded Poland at the same time according to an agreement between the two countries. Why did the rest of the world declare war on Germany?
Someone’s been watching too much Tucker.
Posted on 5/8/25 at 8:59 am to tide06
quote:
What they did with the Ukrainian famine makes the current engagement look like a game of tag on the playground.
The Holodomor in 1932-1933 in Ukraine was Stalins man-made famine/genocide that killed around 5 million and is never heard of.
I was never taught about it in any history class from middle school to undergraduate.
Timothy Snyders book Bloodlands is a great read regarding Ukraine and then Poland between Stalin and Hitler.
It answers the very question the OP is asking.
There is also a movie-might be on Netflix: Mr. Jones who was Gareth Jones from Wales who was able to get to Moscow then into the Ukraine countryside to report the famine. It’s a true store. The movie implies he influenced George Orwell for Animal Farm but I’m not sure how accurate that actually is.
Posted on 5/8/25 at 9:12 am to IAmNERD
quote:
We couldn't afford for the Soviets to fall to Germany.
^^^ This... So the world sort of overlooked the Soviet part of the Invasion. In one word... POLITICS.
What was it Churchill said? - "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
This post was edited on 5/8/25 at 9:14 am
Posted on 5/8/25 at 9:41 am to Martini
quote:
There is also a movie-might be on Netflix: Mr. Jones who was Gareth Jones from Wales who was able to get to Moscow then into the Ukraine countryside to report the famine. It’s a true store. The movie implies he influenced George Orwell for Animal Farm but I’m not sure how accurate that actually is.
I forgot about that movie. Good movie. Heavy.
Darryl Cooper's podcast Martyr Made has an episode that covers the Holodomor in detail called The Anti-Humans that is worth a listen too. Its pretty fkd.
Posted on 5/8/25 at 11:15 am to TigerRoyale
quote:Because WW1 was a bitter memory and because nobody wanted to relearn the lessons of Napoleon's attempt to conquer Russia.
Why did the rest of the world declare war on Germany?
Posted on 5/8/25 at 11:57 am to Funky Tide 8
Wow just found it. From 2021. I’ll listen now . Thanks.
ETA: I opened it and had 4 minutes left so apparently I’ve listened before. Starting over.
ETA: I opened it and had 4 minutes left so apparently I’ve listened before. Starting over.
This post was edited on 5/8/25 at 11:59 am
Posted on 5/8/25 at 12:18 pm to TigerRoyale
LINK
This is quite a series. Historical facts check out on their own. It’s a hard pill to swallow if true.
This is quite a series. Historical facts check out on their own. It’s a hard pill to swallow if true.
This post was edited on 5/8/25 at 12:19 pm
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