re: Megachurch as a business

i've attended one of these mega churches off and on over the years. never joined or tithed. but i enjoy the pastor's sermons. he admitted during service that the number one complaint they get about church is that it's "too boring". criticize them all you want, but these types of churches have adapted better to what people want today. the churches that depend on elderly members and have changed nothing won't be around.

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I’m for for churches and religion as long as they’re doing good in peoples’ lives, however, the money flowing through some of these places is ridiculous and it’s really shameful to see it pay for a new “coffee shop” or Pastor Jeff’s brand new tan. Many churches are out there trying to live like Jesus, but there are just as many scamming the people for their hard earned money, justifying it as God’s blessings. Mega churches are scams. Cults for money.

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I think there are three categories in my mind

1) Osteen-ish prosperity gospel churches where there really isn't any doubt about the motivations. Unfortunately there are a ton of black churches in this category too.

2) North Point-type churches where the churches do a ton for the community, have Gospel/Christ-centered focuses but which also take in a huge amount of money that raises understandable suspicion about motivations and stewardship. A lot of times these pastors may not be raking in cash from the church but are nonetheless living very well (book sales, often).

3) Large churches where nobody in particular appears to be profiting from growth.

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Their salaries should be listed on the church's public 990 forms. See guidestar.org.

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Healing place does an annual audit and shares it with the congregation.

HPC = GOAT
Pastor Mike

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you see this sounds reasonable. There are people who get into the preaching business because they truly believe it is a good thing to do and they have nothing but good intentions. That was my angle here. Organized religion, when followed and not used for personal gain or violence, is a positive thing. It generally teaches people to not be assholes at its core, no matter the flavor of the almighty chosen.

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Well and to some extent we have to account for the idea that people are people and wealth corrupts. There are some pastors who I think get into it for money. The worst of the worst.

But take Andy Stanley, for example, who started a church in a school I think and grew it pretty organically (albeit with his dad's name). While I'm not convinced Andy Stanley has improper motivations, I recognize that it's probably easy for a well-intentioned guy who starts seeing millions from ministry to lose focus on his initial aims.

Honestly it's probably a problem inherent to churches who set out to attract non-church types. They're subject to wild and fast growth, which means more money coming in the door. I'm glad we have churches like North Point (and probably Church of the Highlands except their leadership is...questionable), they have a role I think. But it raises the question of whether churches like that will be sustainable and be able to keep their focus on the original intent.

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I highly doubt that any supreme being that is benevolent would want his creations giving their earthly possessions and labor to someone on his behalf.

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Sigh. Do you know how much the bible talks about the hypocrisy of religious leaders? A very significant amount. Nothing in the bible says all churches are going to be good and God would never let them be bad.


As long as "sinful" humans occupy these churches, the church can go wrong.

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If we devoted more time to self discovery and connection with the universe, it would probably do us much much more good than literally paying for a 2000 year old gift wrapped set of ideas that are impossible to fact check and very difficult to question without severe ridicule from the community that is "all in."

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So you just want to make your own religion and moral code. All the shitty humans on the earth and you think that'll work out?

What the frick is "self discovery" anyways? People always assume theres a universal understanding of what this means. What happens at the end of "self discovery"? How does it fit into all of humanity?


You dont know it, but you're inadvertently using some very basic assumptions that are typically rooted in God-like beliefs.


Like I said, you just want to make your own version of religion, but to think even that could avoid the sinful nature of humans is naive.

Scientology might be the best example of man made religion and it's less than 100 years old.

I actually attend church of the highlands and feel that we are doing a lot of good things around the world. I know that it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but it’s a good fit for my family and myself. I thought this website would love it, seeing that pastor Chris Hodges is a huge LSU fan and graduate.

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2) North Point-type churches where the churches do a ton for the community, have Gospel/Christ-centered focuses but which also take in a huge amount of money that raises understandable suspicion about motivations and stewardship. A lot of times these pastors may not be raking in cash from the church but are nonetheless living very well (book sales, often).

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My church is affiliated with North Point and I think you hit it to a T.

They certainly give a TON back to the community, hell they even subsized childcare for their small groups. But I wonder where all the resources come from as I am pretty certain the run healthily in the black. I haven't seen disclosure and I know Andy Stanley is worth $$$$ and has a nice Lambo (but a significant portion of his wealth is from book sales).

Our church's two pastors live comfortably, but I wouldn't call it extravagant.

How many of these pop up "churches for the unchurched" with some questionable practices are a product of the Association of Related Churches (ARC)?

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But I wonder where all the resources come from as I am pretty certain the run healthily in the black.

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Most of North Points revenue actually comes from a few donors. Staley and family make a lot of money, its the family business.

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Andy makes the vast majority of his income off his books. And unlike these pastors in 15 million dollar homes with private planes, lives in a fairly modest home considering the size of the church he leads.

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I agree, which is why I think it's completely worth discussing whether Andy Stanley and similar guys present "issues", but that's a very different conversation than the typical megachurch debate.

Let's say Andy lives in an 800k home. You're right it's not terribly extravagant for his book sales and church leadership, but it's still a pretty nice life for a minister. But that same question applies to us (church members, Christians), too. Do wealth and comfort at some point become interference? I think the answer is probably yes.