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re: Let’s have a WWI discussion. Which country is most at fault for it?
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:09 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:09 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Germany then the Austrians then the French probably in that order.
0
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:10 pm to fr33manator
I think the Belgians would argue that Germany’s crossing the border is in direct violation of their neutrality clause which was guaranteed in 1839.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:10 pm to 14&Counting
quote:
Treaty of Versailles plays heavily into it all.
quote:
Treaty of Versailles ended the war dummy
Oops...I just read the title of the thread and thought it said WWII...my bad.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:12 pm to Jamohn
quote:
The fact that the Schlieffen Plan existed long before is proof.
You don’t think every military has plans of what they’d do if x happens?
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:14 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Germany's blank cheque to Austria-Hungary. Without that more softball would've been had. Once Russia started mobilizing in response though it was no turning back for anyone.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:14 pm to Ancient Astronaut
quote:
Where’s Bosnia-Herzegovina ????
They had been annexed by Austria-Hungary. A group made up of predominantly school students called Mlada Bosna (translates to Young Bosnia) primarily Bosnian Serbs (including Serb Muslims), but also Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats, were behind assassination of Archduke Ferdinand.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:16 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
the alliance system that was to blame.
I took a Balkan history class at LSU and this was Roider’s point.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:16 pm to jdutto3
quote:
Earlier that day, they someone else tried and failed to assassinate him. If at first you don't succeed...
The same guy if memory serves right.
Grabbed a sandwich and was sulking. Walks outside... And there's his target.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:17 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Well, that’s a complicated question. Really blame can be spread around and most doesn’t land on Germany if you’re looking at things objectively. As for starting the war, I’d blame mostly both Austria amd Russia. The matter between Austria and Serbia was of no vital national security threat to Russia other than their self-proclaimed position as “protector of the Slavs”. Russia was fully aware that if they mobilized against Austria, Germany was treaty bound to come to Austria’s aid.
That’s why the decision by Czar Nicholas of Russia to mobilize his forces even though both the Germans and Austrians begged him not to was the point that a general European war became inevitable. Furthermore, this mobilization by Russia put Germany in the untenable position of having to come to the aid of Austria against Russia in the east while Russia’s ally France was undoubtedly going to come to Rissia’s Aid in the West. This was the realization of the long held German nightmare of having to fight a two front war against both Russia and France.
The Germans though had long planned for this, namely the Schleifen Plan. This plan called for massing the bulk of German’s army in the west to knock France out of the war in Six weeks. This six week timeframe was vital because the Germans figured they’d have those six weeks to knock France out of the war before the Russians could fully mobilize their massive forces in the east. From the German point of view, due to geography l, they had no choice but to knock France out first so they could deal with Russia. So, just as Russia’s mobilization assured war with Germany and Austria, it also forced Germany’s Hand to attack France. Thus, it was Russia more than anyone who is to blame for the start of the war.
Now, this leads us to Great Britain. Unlike Russia, Austria, Germany, and France, they were not treaty boud to come into the war. What they did was take Germany’s invasion of Belgium (part of the Schliefen plan’s “strong right hook” strategy) and use it as a pretext to enter the war on the side of the Allies. It was their involvement that threw the Schliefen plan off track. It was the British at the Battle of the Marne that stopped the Germans. Had they not done this, the war would have ended probably within months with the end result being little more than some adjustments to the European map. But instead, thanks to the British, the Germans were prevented from knocking France out of the war. This is what made the already general European war into what we now know as World War I.
So while the lions share of blame for starting the war lays with Russia, the blame for the war turning into the massive meat grinder that sent Europe into the abyss lays with Great Britian.
That’s why the decision by Czar Nicholas of Russia to mobilize his forces even though both the Germans and Austrians begged him not to was the point that a general European war became inevitable. Furthermore, this mobilization by Russia put Germany in the untenable position of having to come to the aid of Austria against Russia in the east while Russia’s ally France was undoubtedly going to come to Rissia’s Aid in the West. This was the realization of the long held German nightmare of having to fight a two front war against both Russia and France.
The Germans though had long planned for this, namely the Schleifen Plan. This plan called for massing the bulk of German’s army in the west to knock France out of the war in Six weeks. This six week timeframe was vital because the Germans figured they’d have those six weeks to knock France out of the war before the Russians could fully mobilize their massive forces in the east. From the German point of view, due to geography l, they had no choice but to knock France out first so they could deal with Russia. So, just as Russia’s mobilization assured war with Germany and Austria, it also forced Germany’s Hand to attack France. Thus, it was Russia more than anyone who is to blame for the start of the war.
Now, this leads us to Great Britain. Unlike Russia, Austria, Germany, and France, they were not treaty boud to come into the war. What they did was take Germany’s invasion of Belgium (part of the Schliefen plan’s “strong right hook” strategy) and use it as a pretext to enter the war on the side of the Allies. It was their involvement that threw the Schliefen plan off track. It was the British at the Battle of the Marne that stopped the Germans. Had they not done this, the war would have ended probably within months with the end result being little more than some adjustments to the European map. But instead, thanks to the British, the Germans were prevented from knocking France out of the war. This is what made the already general European war into what we now know as World War I.
So while the lions share of blame for starting the war lays with Russia, the blame for the war turning into the massive meat grinder that sent Europe into the abyss lays with Great Britian.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 3:21 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:21 pm to mdomingue
Where da Bosnia at?
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:21 pm to Darth_Vader
I have to say, Darth, I agree with all that.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:21 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:It wasn't a conditional concept or a plan designed for contingencies. It was a purely offensive plan of aggression against what was possibly the world's top military at the time not named Germany for the sole purpose of increasing it's standing as a European empire at the expense of the other, more established empires.
You don’t think every military has plans of what they’d do if x happens?
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:22 pm to jdutto3
quote:
Earlier that day, they someone else tried and failed to assassinate him.
Not just someone else. One of Gavrilo Princip's co-conspirators. 6 men were sent out to the parade route, each with instructions to kill the archduke as his motorcade passed. Someone further up the line than Princip threw a grenade at the archduke's car, but never accounted for the delay. The motorcade sped up when he threw the grenade and it blew up a few cars behind the archduke's. In the confusion following the explosion, Princip left the parade and went to get a sandwich.
The archduke wanted to go to the hospital to see the people injured by the grenade and his driver took a wrong turn. When the driver realized his mistake, he stopped the car and stalled the engine trying to put it into reverse. They were right in front of the cafe Princip went to. He stepped forward and shot the archduke in the neck, plunging the world into war.
After the grenade blast, one of Princip's co-conspirators swallowed a cyanide pill and jumped into a river to kill himself and avoid capture. The cyanide pill was old and degraded and the river was like a foot deep. He was promptly captured by the police.
It was a comedy of errors in how it all went down. It would be funnier if tens of millions didn't die because of it. Remember that WWI and WWII were pretty much the same war, just with a long pause in the middle. Also, the sandwich story is probably apocryphal. Though the archduke was shot in front of a cafe, Princip probably just happened to be there (sans sandwich) because that was pretty close to where his original position to kill the archduke was. That the archduke's driver took a wrong turn and pulled to a stop right in front of an assassin is the extraordinary stroke of bad luck.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 3:31 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:24 pm to ZappBrannigan
quote:
Once Russia started mobilizing in response though it was no turning back for anyone.
Roider also argues that this played a massive role.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:26 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
The UK had an out, and volunteered to throw their young men into hell anyway.
Without UK participation, the war isn’t nearly as big, and US doesn’t join.
Central powers at least don’t lose the war, so no WWII.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:26 pm to Jamohn
quote:
It wasn't a conditional concept or a plan designed for contingencies. It was a purely offensive plan of aggression against what was possibly the world's top military at the time not named Germany for the sole purpose of increasing it's standing as a European empire at the expense of the other, more established empires.
They made that plan because they knew they would never be able to win a two front war otherwise. Are you saying that Germany shouldn’t have come up with warplans that would’ve maximized their chances at winning the war? One in which France wanted after 1871-1872. It wasn’t exactly a mystery that they’d fight again.
Hell, France had warplans of their own before WWI started on what to do should they get in another war with Germany.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 3:30 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:29 pm to Jamohn
quote:
The fact that the Schlieffen Plan existed long before is proof.
No. The Schlieffen Plan was a result of the treaty signed between France and Russia. This treaty meant that Germany had two very dangerous rivals to both the east and west. They were surrounded for all intents and purposes.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:31 pm to X123F45
Everybody regurgitating hardcore history in here. Glad to see you degenerates are educating yourselves while sitting in br traffic
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:33 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
Germany having little dick syndrome and moving west is the problem
No. Once Russia went to general mobilization that meant that war was inevitable. And Russia’s treaty with France meant that France would come to the aid of Russia. This pit Germany in the position of either having to face a fully mobilized France to the west and Russia to the east. From the German point of view, The only hope Germany had was to knock France out first before Russian mobilization was completed.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:37 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
No. Once Russia went to general mobilization that meant that war was inevitable. And Russia’s treaty with France meant that France would come to the aid of Russia. This pit Germany in the position of either having to face a fully mobilized France to the west and Russia to the east. From the German point of view, The only hope Germany had was to knock France out first before Russian mobilization was completed.
This
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