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Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 6/22/24 at 2:21 pm to Lee B
Posted on 6/22/24 at 2:21 pm to Lee B
quote:Goodness, these discussions are painful.
NATO announced that Ukraine and Georgia would become members.
After Putin invaded
You're saying "Putin invaded" somewhere relevant prior to 2008 when NATO proclaimed Ukraine and Georgia would become members?
2
Posted on 6/22/24 at 2:36 pm to NC_Tigah
UK's Nigel Farage doubles down on controversial Ukraine/Putin comments
by Chris York June 22, 2024 10:22 PM
British politician Nigel Farage has doubled down on his controversial claim that Russia was provoked into launching the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by the expansion of NATO and the EU.
In an article for The Telegraph on June 22, titled "The West’s errors in Ukraine have been catastrophic. I won’t apologize for telling the truth," Farage denied he was "an apologist or supporter of Putin."
Farage's comments echo Kremlin disinformation lines used to justify the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, namely that Russia was forced to start the war to protect itself from the threat from NATO.
The stance ignores the fact NATO is a defensive alliance and one of the main motivating factors for countries in Eastern Europe – including Ukraine – to join, is an understanding of the Kremlin's imperialist ambitions rooted in a long and bloody history of falling victim to it.
The Kyiv Independent
by Chris York June 22, 2024 10:22 PM
British politician Nigel Farage has doubled down on his controversial claim that Russia was provoked into launching the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by the expansion of NATO and the EU.
In an article for The Telegraph on June 22, titled "The West’s errors in Ukraine have been catastrophic. I won’t apologize for telling the truth," Farage denied he was "an apologist or supporter of Putin."
Farage's comments echo Kremlin disinformation lines used to justify the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, namely that Russia was forced to start the war to protect itself from the threat from NATO.
The stance ignores the fact NATO is a defensive alliance and one of the main motivating factors for countries in Eastern Europe – including Ukraine – to join, is an understanding of the Kremlin's imperialist ambitions rooted in a long and bloody history of falling victim to it.
The Kyiv Independent
Posted on 6/22/24 at 2:44 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
No no, That is not the point
Yes yes, that is my point. If there’s a settlement there has to be guarantees for Ukraine or why settle?
I keep asking you besides letting Ukraine in NATO, how can there be real guarantees? I’m waiting to hear your ideas.
quote:
WTF were we doing guaranteeing admission to NATO?
I didn’t know that we ever guaranteed Ukraine admission to NATO. When was this?
Posted on 6/22/24 at 2:47 pm to cypher
Lima Whiskey says NATO couldn’t muster 100,000 troops. Farage says NATO was threatening Russia. lol.
The Russian defenders are all over the place.
The Russian defenders are all over the place.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 3:05 pm to doubleb
They aren't afraid of being invaded. They're mad they can't invade their neighbors without taking on the US+Western Europe as a whole.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 3:38 pm to cwil1
quote:
They aren't afraid of being invaded. They're mad they can't invade their neighbors without taking on the US+Western Europe as a whole.
Which is why they've pulled 80% of their forces from the Finnish border and air defense from the Kuril Islands to Crimea.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 3:49 pm to CitizenK
Plus they've transferred air defense systems and aircraft from Kalingrad to Ukraine and Crimea.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 3:50 pm to cypher
quote:Geaux Figure
Russia was provoked into launching the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by the expansion of NATO and the EU.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 3:53 pm to doubleb
quote:?"lol"?
Farage says NATO was threatening Russia. lol.
You're kidding???
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:09 pm to doubleb
quote:THE UNITED STATES!!!!!
I keep asking you besides letting Ukraine in NATO, how can there be real guarantees? I’m waiting to hear your ideas.
GOT IT????
Because THE UNITED STATES already SUPPOSEDLY committed to to such guarantees vis-a-vis Bucharest in 2008. Given our Apr22 reticence to actually insert resources, it almost appears that we were .... wait4it .... duplicitous in 2008 Bucharest.
quote:You didn't? It was in 2008, when NATO said "Ukraine WILL BECOME a member of NATO."
I didn’t know that we ever guaranteed Ukraine admission to NATO. When was this?
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:25 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
THE UNITED STATES!!!!! GOT IT????
Obviously we don’t intend to do that. So you have to agree there can be no peace deal, right.
quote:
Because THE UNITED STATES already SUPPOSEDLY committed to to such guarantees vis-a-vis Bucharest in 2008
Bucharest was 1994. A short outline.
quote:
The Budapest agreement signed in 1994 did not include an ironclad obligation for the U.S. to protect Ukraine if its borders were violated. During the negotiations, the United States took pains to steer the language away from the term "guarantee," in favor of "assurances," which in diplomacy entails a lesser degree of obligation. The United States said it would go to the United Nations if another power threatened Ukraine’s borders.
quote:
You didn't? It was in 2008, when NATO said "Ukraine WILL BECOME a member of NATO."
You call that a guarantee? I call it a goal, and certainly things happened after 2008 to change everything. First a Russian stooge titled Ukraine towards Russia and then Ukrsine was invaded. Circumstances in 2008 changed radically.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:30 pm to doubleb
quote:
People keep talking about Russia needing all these buffer states for protection, but since WWII who has attacked Russia?
They had the largest army in the world. They had much of it parked on the Iron Curtain. They could not maintain their armies, but they still have their nukes. Who is going to attack them now? Who would be that stupid?
You know that, and I know that... Putin doesn't think that way.
The only country that seems to have any interest in invading Russia is China... and they're being welcomed in and sold land.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:32 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Goodness, these discussions are painful.
You're saying "Putin invaded" somewhere relevant prior to 2008 when NATO proclaimed Ukraine and Georgia would become members?
They're painful because you repeat the same disproven crap over and over...
Show us where NATO proclaimed Ukraine and Georgia were assured membership in 2008, please!!!!
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:32 pm to Lee B
quote:
The only country that seems to have any interest in invading Russia is China... and they're being welcomed in and sold land
I hear they are scooping it up here in the states also. Anything happening in the battlefield today?
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:33 pm to cypher
quote:
British politician Nigel Farage has doubled down on his controversial claim that Russia was provoked into launching the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by the expansion of NATO and the EU.
Another a-hole on the Kremlin payroll
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:38 pm to Lee B
quote:
You know that, and I know that... Putin doesn't think that way.
I think if it were football, Putin would be considered an offensive coach and not defensive.
I think he’s opportunistic. He took Crimes vis a well organized take over with very little resistance from anybody. He thought he could do it again not to solidify his defenses, but to gain power and glory
And yes it is obvious that China is more of a military threat to Russia than NATO is.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:43 pm to cwil1
quote:
They aren't afraid of being invaded. They're mad they can't invade their neighbors without taking on the US+Western Europe as a whole.
It's both.
Putin is paranoid... not unlike every dictator and every crime overlord.
That doesn't mean his logic will always make sense to you, because you're not a dictator or a crime overlord trapped in a warped reality and logic.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:43 pm to doubleb
quote:
You call that a guarantee? I call it a goal, and certainly things happened after 2008 to change everything. First a Russian stooge titled Ukraine towards Russia and then Ukrsine was invaded. Circumstances in 2008 changed radically.
Not to mention Orban, Putin's favorite EU politician, retaking control of Hungary in 2010. Any so called "guarantee" to join NATO became irrelevant when that happened.
This post was edited on 6/22/24 at 4:51 pm
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:48 pm to doubleb
quote:Bucharest was 2008
Bucharest was 1994. A short outline.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 4:49 pm to cypher
Very interesting video walkthrough of a captured Russian "turtle tank". The gun is fixed in place and cannot fire, so the tank has essentially been turned into an APC to transport infantry forward to attack.
Why is Russia converting old tanks into APCs? Why aren't they simply using their APCs for that purpose?
Well, one reason is that they're running low on APCs. Consider the old Soviet MT-LB. Open source data indicates that Russia had 2626 MT-LBs in service in 2021, and they now have only 802.
And the MT-LBs were made in Kharkiv, so Russia can't just activate the factory and ask for more.
Hence, the adaptation.
Loading Twitter/X Embed...
If tweet fails to load, click here. Why is Russia converting old tanks into APCs? Why aren't they simply using their APCs for that purpose?
Well, one reason is that they're running low on APCs. Consider the old Soviet MT-LB. Open source data indicates that Russia had 2626 MT-LBs in service in 2021, and they now have only 802.
And the MT-LBs were made in Kharkiv, so Russia can't just activate the factory and ask for more.
Hence, the adaptation.
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