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Posted on 6/22/24 at 10:08 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
it has to leave one mulling WTF we were doing promising NATO membership to Ukraine in the first place.
Two things. Offering Ukraine a spot in NATO prior to 2014 was one thing, but after 2014 another. After 2022 it’s an even worse option.
Second, did NATO ever offer Ukraine a spot? NATO, not the EU.
But back to my question, if you are Joe Biden what peace deal where’d the US is the guarantor would be acceptable to you?
Posted on 6/22/24 at 10:12 am to doubleb
quote:
Second, did NATO ever offer Ukraine a spot?
At least since 1990, a nation has to apply to NATO for membership. This is not something offered. There are several hurdles to be cleared to even be considered for membership. It takes several years (until recently out of emergency) before a nation is approved for NATO membership.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 10:23 am to GOP_Tiger
France is working on a ground launched cruise missile with a small radar cross section to get through air defenses that carries an 1100 lb warhead 870 miles. They call it the LCM (Land Cruise Missile, not very original name but it’s based on their existing NCM (Naval Cruise Missile). A cruise missile with almost 900 miles range would really ruffle Putin’s feathers.My first target would be Russia’s heavy bomber bases like Engels-2. My 2nd targetI would be very tempted to hit FSB headquarters in Moscow.
LINK
LINK
This post was edited on 6/22/24 at 10:44 am
Posted on 6/22/24 at 10:26 am to GOP_Tiger
USA has failed Ukraine since 2014. 8 years with no real support and then 2+ years of war support with conditions.
SUPPORT THEM 100% OR GTFO AND LET IT BE OVER. TOO MANY DEATHS DUE TO SPINELESS POLITICAL LEADERS
SUPPORT THEM 100% OR GTFO AND LET IT BE OVER. TOO MANY DEATHS DUE TO SPINELESS POLITICAL LEADERS
Posted on 6/22/24 at 10:29 am to doubleb
quote:NATO announced that Ukraine and Georgia would become members.
Second, did NATO ever offer Ukraine a spot?
Posted on 6/22/24 at 10:37 am to doubleb
quote:If I was Potatobrain, I'd delegate that matter to someone with appropriate mental capacity. If I was Potatobrain's designee, yours is a question I'd have been asking in 2021 when the Biden Admin was first ramping up incendiary Ukraine-NATO dialogue. So hopefully we'd never have even arrived at the point of hostilities. In 2022 I'd never have mucked up, much less scuttled, peace talks.
if you are Joe Biden what peace deal where’d the US is the guarantor would be acceptable to you?
But, all that said, if we arrived at this point, I'd do what I could to minimize the possibility of US forces in Ukraine
This post was edited on 6/22/24 at 10:47 am
Posted on 6/22/24 at 10:54 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
But, all that said, if we arrived at this point, I'd do what I could to minimize the possibility of US forces in Ukraine
Exactly my thinking and exactly why a peace plan is so hard to craft.
Russia had been in Ukraine since 2014. The only clear cut out I see is to settle on the boundary. Give Russia Crimea, and the Donbas. Agree to the new borders and agree to Ukraine getting in NATO. And have Russia Ukraine for their losses.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 10:59 am to LSU7096
quote:
USA has failed Ukraine since 2014
Well, Obama gave Ukraine a lot of blankets and MREs...
Posted on 6/22/24 at 11:05 am to doubleb
quote:How does that jibe with minimizing US military involvement in Ukraine?
agree to Ukraine getting in NATO
Posted on 6/22/24 at 12:05 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 6/22/24 at 12:29 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
NATO announced that Ukraine and Georgia would become members.
After Putin invaded, but still far from a done deal... Hungary can refuse and keep Ukraine out, and they would not qualify until the border issue is settled one way or another.
I'd guess the same with Georgia...
And Armenia will probably be begging for membership soon... so will Ajerbaijan, probably, and considering that they and Azerbaijanis in Iran are the thing Khomeini Iran is irritated perhaps the most with...
This post was edited on 6/22/24 at 12:31 pm
Posted on 6/22/24 at 12:32 pm to doubleb
quote:
Give Russia Crimea, and the Donbas. Agree to the new borders
And tell the world "if you want your neighbor's territory, just invade them.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 12:37 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
How does that jibe with minimizing US military involvement in Ukraine?
The Russians haven’t attacked NATO yet.
I’m counting on that. If no NATO who do you offer as the peace keeper?
Posted on 6/22/24 at 12:40 pm to Lee B
quote:
And tell the world "if you want your neighbor's territory, just invade them.
I understand your point, but I don’t know a better way to settle the war. If you have a better alternative then I’d like to hear it.
Keep in mind too Russia took most of what they have now in 2014 and we did nothing. We let them have Crimea and parts of the Donbas.
IMHO, that is what has brought this bigger war on.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 12:45 pm to LSU7096
quote:
USA has failed Ukraine since 2014. 8 years with no real support and then 2+ years of war support with conditions.
SUPPORT THEM 100% OR GTFO
If I'm not mistaken, in 2014 the US did not overtly do much about Crimea other than a few statements and sanctions, but behind the scenes this is when we began helping Ukraine reorient its military... but almost secretly, because we needed Putin onboard for the Iran nuclear deterrence deal.
Trump was just louder about supplying arms to Ukraine... especially with "the perfect phone call." They didn't want attention drawn to it before that...
But, how did the US ban arming the Azov Battalion under the Leahy Law in 2014 if we weren't supplying the Ukrainians and Azov Battalion in 2014?
quote:
TOO MANY DEATHS DUE TO SPINELESS POLITICAL LEADERS
Russia kills... they butcher people in the provinces within Russia... assuming they would not have butchered Ukrainians - like in Bucha - if they met no resistance does not fit their profile... unless you're going to argue they're "good Christian Lads" or some nonsense.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 1:10 pm to doubleb
quote:
IMHO, that is what has brought this bigger war on.
Russia was always going to invade Ukraine if it could not have a Lukashenko-style puppet in control of it.
Same with Moldova, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and half of Poland. They conveniently have Orban in Hungary already.
With a decreasing demography, Russia is paranoid that it will be invaded, like has happened 50 times, at least, in its history. Historical memory does dictate actions... Poland is motivated by its history with Russia, so is Ukraine and the Baltic states.
The Russian ethnicity is trending towards extinction in the next couple of decades... it fears being overrun by the ethnic minorities within Russia, and fights to keep control over them in their regions...
So, it is an existential war on three fronts: wanting physical geographical barriers, which exist beyond its borders on the West, and wanting to "reclaim" any Europeans it can claim have Russian origins to "reprogram" into being Russians, wanting to keep control over its eastern population and control of former satellite states that border it in the southeast.
That's what's driven its actions since the fall of the USSR, when it suddenly found itself greatly reduced in power. It was Yeltsin who held onto Kaliningrad and Transnistria... and neither of those make any sense except as wedges for later expansions.
Posted on 6/22/24 at 1:39 pm to Lee B
People keep talking about Russia needing all these buffer states for protection, but since WWII who has attacked Russia?
They had the largest army in the world. They had much of it parked on the Iron Curtain. They could not maintain their armies, but they still have their nukes. Who is going to attack them now? Who would be that stupid?
They had the largest army in the world. They had much of it parked on the Iron Curtain. They could not maintain their armies, but they still have their nukes. Who is going to attack them now? Who would be that stupid?
Posted on 6/22/24 at 2:13 pm to doubleb
quote:No no, That is not the point. Again, if the US does not want personal involvement, then WTF were we doing guaranteeing admission to NATO?
If no NATO who do you offer as the peace keeper?
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