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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 6/21/24 at 5:13 pm to Obtuse1
Posted on 6/21/24 at 5:13 pm to Obtuse1
quote:False! and in historical terms ... stupid! The expected "endpoint" is never dynamic. Only the results are.
The "endpoint" of any armed conflict is dynamic.
The expected endpoint of WWI was total victory.
Britain, France, US won. Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia lost.
The expected endpoint of WWII was total victory.
Germany lost. The US & USSR won.
The expected endpoint in Korea was total victory.
An armistice was attained. Who lost?
1
Posted on 6/21/24 at 5:15 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
quote:
Russia won’t permit Ukraine to join NATO so how is NATO going to guarantee Ukraine’s independence?
There were a half dozen ways to skin that cat. NATO was explicitly not one of the ways. Individual NATO nations would have been free to contribute. E.g., Turkey was prominently mentioned as a component nation in conjunction w/ other West European states. Alternately, oversight IAW the Korean Armistice Agreement was laid out. Johnson and Austin put the kibosh on those plans.
Are we also just going to gloss over the fact that Russia was demanding that security guarantees had to be unanimous by all countries and Russia be one of the voting members? I love how people say BJ scuttled the talks but actively ignoring things like Putin saying he didn't like the terms and Russia having terms like the aforementioned
Posted on 6/21/24 at 5:17 pm to SirWinston
quote:
LARPing hobby
Spanking, how let this LARPer back in the thread?
Posted on 6/21/24 at 5:19 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:Really, really, really dumb.
If Trump is determined to end the war quickly, there are really only two options:
1) Tell Russia to withdraw back to 2021 borders or we give Ukraine lots more stuff, including our latest weaponry,
2) Tell Ukraine to accept the loss of their territory in exchange for NATO membership.
If RFK, or Potatobrain, or Trump are determined to end the war quickly there are at least two options.
(1) Make Zelenskyy and his cohorts rich in the exchange, or
(2) Shut off the money spigot altogether.
My suspicion is Trump would choose the latter.
This post was edited on 6/21/24 at 5:20 pm
Posted on 6/21/24 at 5:23 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Exactly. Ukraine was absolutely counting on the US .... until the US (thru Johnson) said "it ain't happening," unless ""we"" (meaning our green money, your red blood) "press Putin"
Certainly, Ukraine isn’t stupid.
Now put yourself in our place. We pledged to support Ukraine’s sovereignty. After 8 years, we finally started to live up to our pledge in a meaningful way.
But we never pledged to put boots on the ground, or put Ukraine under our nuclear umbrella.
I suspect that kind of guarantee is what was called for and if I were Johnson and Biden; I would never agree to that with Russia already in a shooting war with them,
Putting Americans in a war zone as policemen is a no way.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 5:24 pm to StormyMcMan
quote:Unless you reside in Oz, there is no question whatsoever BJ scuttled the talks. BJ said it. Ukraine said it. Russia said it. US diplomats said it.
I love how people say BJ scuttled the talks
. . . . . . . . . yet here you are
Posted on 6/21/24 at 5:33 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Unless you reside in Oz, there is no question whatsoever BJ scuttled the talks. BJ said it. Ukraine said it. Russia said it. US diplomats said it.
. . . . . . . . . yet here you are
Yet there are plenty of articles out there that show that didn't happen and why the talks fell apart
.........yet here you are
Posted on 6/21/24 at 5:47 pm to doubleb
quote:Tell it to W and Condoleezza
Putting Americans in a war zone as policemen is a no way.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 6:14 pm to StormyMcMan
quote:Good!
Yet there are plenty of articles out there that show that didn't happen
Let's start with the ones in the Ukrainian papers and go from there as necessary.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 6:35 pm to NC_Tigah
The New York Times
The Sticking Points That Kept Russia and Ukraine Apart
Anton Troianovski and Michael Schwirtz
Updated Sun, June 16, 2024 at 9:48 AM CDT
Russia agreed to much of Ukraine’s proposal but with key exceptions. It balked at the idea of other countries establishing a no-fly zone or providing Ukraine with weapons. Most important, Russia sought to insert a clause that would require all guarantor countries — including Russia itself — to agree on military intervention. The idea stands as perhaps the most intractable sticking point in the draft, rendering the security guarantees moot by allowing Russia to veto any international response.
New York Times via yahoo no paywall
The Sticking Points That Kept Russia and Ukraine Apart
Anton Troianovski and Michael Schwirtz
Updated Sun, June 16, 2024 at 9:48 AM CDT
Russia agreed to much of Ukraine’s proposal but with key exceptions. It balked at the idea of other countries establishing a no-fly zone or providing Ukraine with weapons. Most important, Russia sought to insert a clause that would require all guarantor countries — including Russia itself — to agree on military intervention. The idea stands as perhaps the most intractable sticking point in the draft, rendering the security guarantees moot by allowing Russia to veto any international response.
New York Times via yahoo no paywall
Posted on 6/21/24 at 7:34 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
NC_Tigah
If you actually care to educate yourself a little this breaks down the peace talks pretty well
Posted on 6/21/24 at 8:21 pm to StormyMcMan
ISW Update
quote:
Key Takeaways:
Russian President Vladimir Putin continues to invoke nuclear threats as part of his ongoing information campaign to discourage further Western support for Ukraine and undermine the international community's efforts to cohere its strategic vision for defeating Russia’s war of conquest against Ukraine.
Putin and Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov continued to emphasize Russia's initiative to create an alternative "Eurasian security architecture," likely as part of ongoing efforts to establish a coalition of friendly states to act as an alternative to the West and undermine NATO.
The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) criticized South Korean and Japanese objections to the Russian-North Korean strategic partnership agreement and directly tied the agreement to Russian President Vladimir Putin's "Eurasian security architecture" initiative.
Ukrainian forces struck oil refineries and military targets in Bryansk and Astrakhan oblasts, Krasnodar Krai, and occupied Crimea on the night of June 20 to 21.
Moscow State University (MGU) announced on June 21 that it has opened enrollment for a master's program on "strategic communications, information, and hybrid wars" under the guidance of Russian ultranationalist and former State Duma Deputy Zakhar Prilepin and other select Duma deputies.
Russian forces recently advanced southeast of Kupyansk, southwest of Svatove, and west and southwest of Donetsk City.
The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) appears to be taking steps to address known bureaucratic issues as part of its efforts to formalize irregular Russian formations.
An investigation by Russian opposition outlet Verstka highlights how Russia is importing Russian judges to serve in courts in occupied Ukraine, supporting Russian efforts to control the judiciary while also providing a convenient cover for the resettlement of Russian citizens into occupied Ukraine.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 8:27 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The expected endpoint of WWII was total victory. Germany lost. The US & USSR won.
But Japan got to keep their emperor so it wasn’t a total victory.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 8:30 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Tell it to W and Condoleezza
That is a half arse answer, what do their mistakes hzve to go with anything,
If the peace settlement required US boots in the ground would you go for it?
Posted on 6/21/24 at 8:32 pm to StormyMcMan
quote:
If you actually care to educate yourself a little this breaks down the peace talks pretty well
He only believes the articles that back up the notion that Putin was forced into war, and tgst Putin was ready to settle, but the western bad boys said no.
This post was edited on 6/21/24 at 8:43 pm
Posted on 6/21/24 at 8:34 pm to doubleb
quote:
Putin was ready to settle, but the western bad boys said no.
This is my favorite narrative. Because it's so absurd that it's fun watching people try to push it.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 8:35 pm to doubleb
quote:
But Japan got to keep their emperor so it wasn’t a total victory.
That was at our pleasure, and only because we thought he would be useful in keeping the population in line.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 8:42 pm to No Colors
quote:
That was at our pleasure, and only because we thought he would be useful in keeping the population in line.
Sure, but it wasn’t unconditional surrender.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 8:51 pm to doubleb
quote:
it wasn’t unconditional surrender.
It was unconditional. We just allowed him to stay on because it suited our needs.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 9:05 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Exactly. Ukraine was absolutely counting on the US .
Remind me again why we are discussing this old shite so much? I think all of this has been talked about 59 times in the past two years. None of the articles or anyone’s views have changed have they?
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