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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 6/21/24 at 1:51 pm to CitizenK
Posted on 6/21/24 at 1:51 pm to CitizenK
A bit dated but pretty much what I've stated from the get go and why 2014 happened. He didn't point out the Exxon concessions in Western Ukraine.
LINK
LINK
This post was edited on 6/21/24 at 5:52 pm
0
Posted on 6/21/24 at 1:53 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
If so, my guess is Trump will pursue the Kissinger/Musk solution for peace in that region.
If Trump is determined to end the war quickly, there are really only two options:
1) Tell Russia to withdraw back to 2021 borders or we give Ukraine lots more stuff, including our latest weaponry,
2) Tell Ukraine to accept the loss of their territory in exchange for NATO membership.
Neither of those is in any way an easy sell, so I honestly don't think that Trump will try. He may talk now about ending the war in a day, but that's just talk.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 1:53 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
If so, my guess is Trump will pursue the Kissinger/Musk solution for peace in that region.
After a year, Kissinger flipped seeing that Ukraine could defend itself and capable of winning.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 1:58 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
But MAGA hates both China and Iran, and both of them are increasingly invested in Russian victory, so I don't think it would take much to reframe the whole debate into cracking down on Xi and the Mullahs.
I agree with a lot of your post except for this. While MAGA tends to see internal "threats" or opposition as a bloc, I don't really get the sense that they see our adversaries that way. I think it would be fairly ineffective to use this argument.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 2:19 pm to doubleb
quote:Unless Ukraine makes a serious error, that ship sailed in early 2022 with the collapse of the Kyiv offensive. Putin&Co got their asses impressively kicked there. The challenge for Ukraine in the east though, is Russia has more or less taken a fortified defensive position along the front, making territorial recapture very difficult.
Ending up as a nation under Russian control.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 2:20 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Of course security assurance was a MAJOR component of peace talks over two years ago. Right? Peace talks which the UK/US scuttled. We refused Ukraine those very security assurances if it came to terms with Russia at that point.
You have exposed the carch 22.
Russia won’t permit Ukraine to join NATO so how is NATO going to guarantee Ukraine’s independence?
Would Ukraine be allowed to be protected by the US, the UK, France, Poland, etc. but not allowed in NATO? If not who guaranteed Ukraine’s sovereignty? Russia?
Posted on 6/21/24 at 2:23 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
If so, my guess is Trump will pursue the Kissinger/Musk solution for peace in that region.
What is their solution?
Posted on 6/21/24 at 2:29 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Unless Ukraine makes a serious error, that ship sailed in early 2022 with the collapse of the Kyiv offensive. Putin&Co got their asses impressively kicked there. The challenge for Ukraine in the east though, is Russia has more or less taken a fortified defensive position along the front, making territorial recapture very difficult.
A stalemate could easily be called a win for Ukraine. They still are maintains their sovereignty, right?
And we all know the difficulty of taking territory since Feb. 22. 2022. How much land has Russia taken since they launched thdd Ed SO? And at what cost?
Posted on 6/21/24 at 2:35 pm to VolSquatch
Trump will solve this so quickly. Lilely before he's even sworn in with his beautiful King James Bible on January 20th. It will be great to finally start winning again, lads 
Posted on 6/21/24 at 2:45 pm to SirWinston
quote:
Trump will solve this so quickly
I voted for Trump twice and I will vote for him again, but let me ask you this question; why didn’t Trump stop the war before it got so big?
Posted on 6/21/24 at 2:52 pm to doubleb
quote:There were a half dozen ways to skin that cat. NATO was explicitly not one of the ways. Individual NATO nations would have been free to contribute. E.g., Turkey was prominently mentioned as a component nation in conjunction w/ other West European states. Alternately, oversight IAW the Korean Armistice Agreement was laid out. Johnson and Austin put the kibosh on those plans.
Russia won’t permit Ukraine to join NATO so how is NATO going to guarantee Ukraine’s independence?
Posted on 6/21/24 at 3:01 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
There were a half dozen ways to skin that cat. NATO was explicitly not one of the ways. Individual NATO nations would have been free to contribute
Which they have, not all. When did Ukraine ever apply for NATO membership? Until recently with Sweden and Finland it takes 5 or so years after application and intensive lobbying to be accepted into NATO, at least with former Warsaw Pact nations. There never was any recruitment by NATO for them to join.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 3:03 pm to doubleb
quote:I'd think so. Independent Eastern Oblasts with international oversight. Sovereignty albeit free of NATO, but free to join the EU. Other sundries such as Russia to pay for Crimean water. Ukraine could hold its head high after thwarting Russian hordes on the steps of Kyiv. (for the first time in history?)
A stalemate could easily be called a win for Ukraine. They still are maintains their sovereignty, right?
Posted on 6/21/24 at 3:49 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
There were a half dozen ways to skin that cat
Weak.
No US or no NATO guarantees then no deal.
Ukraine could not agree to terms without the proper guarantees.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 4:29 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
quote:
If so, my guess is Trump will pursue the Kissinger/Musk solution for peace in that region.
If Trump is determined to end the war quickly, there are really only two options:
1) Tell Russia to withdraw back to 2021 borders or we give Ukraine lots more stuff, including our latest weaponry,
2) Tell Ukraine to accept the loss of their territory in exchange for NATO membership.
Neither of those is in any way an easy sell, so I honestly don't think that Trump will try. He may talk now about ending the war in a day, but that's just talk.
3) Do his pal Putin a solid and just cut Ukraine off and pull the U.S. out of NATO.
You will deny it until he does it.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 4:38 pm to doubleb
quote:
why didn’t Trump stop the war before it got so big?
Wait what? That makes zero sense.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 4:39 pm to Lee B
quote:
3) Do his pal Putin a solid and just cut Ukraine off and pull the U.S. out of NATO.
You will deny it until he does it.
It's disgusting to me that a far leftist like you gets so many upvotes in this thread. Logically speaking this means that many "Republicans" in this thread are putting their LARPing hobby over the interests of their own country by approving of your insane posts.
This post was edited on 6/21/24 at 4:40 pm
Posted on 6/21/24 at 4:51 pm to CitizenK
quote:You have got to be kidding.
There never was any recruitment by NATO for them to join.
Posted on 6/21/24 at 4:53 pm to CitizenK
quote:Sorry.
There were a half dozen ways to skin that cat.
---
Which they have, not all.
Did you have a clue as to WTF you were even responding to?
Posted on 6/21/24 at 4:58 pm to doubleb
quote:Exactly. Ukraine was absolutely counting on the US .... until the US (thru Johnson) said "it ain't happening," unless ""we"" (meaning our green money, your red blood) "press Putin"
No US or no NATO guarantees then no deal.
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