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Message
re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:25 am to TacoNash
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:25 am to TacoNash
NATO Discussing Security Model for Ukraine like Israel's – WSJ
Monday, 22 May 2023
NATO key membe have preliminarily supported the idea of providing Ukraine with security guarantees prior to its membership based on the Kyiv Security Compact.
The security agreement, based on a proposal known as the Kyiv Security Compact, is expected to be signed following the NATO summit
According to The Wall Street Journal, the concept related to Ukraine's further NATO membership is based on the Kyiv Security "Compact" from September 2022 by a working group led by the Head of the Office of the President, Andrii Yermak, and former NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen.
An Israeli-style security agreement for Ukraine would give priority to arms transfers and advanced technology, Polish President Andrzej Duda said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal. Discussions on this matter are ongoing, including during President Joe Biden's visit to Warsaw in February.
According to Western officials interviewed by the WSJ, such an agreement for Ukraine could impact the course of the war with Russia, hindering Vladimir Putin's intentions to drag it out with the hope of undermining political support for Ukraine in the US and certain European countries.
An American official, speaking anonymously, confirmed that discussions about the "Israeli model" of security for Ukraine are taking place, but there are no specifics at present.
Senior officials in several European capitals, including Paris and Berlin, said they agreed in principle with the plan, which would involve a series of bilateral assurances within a multilateral framework.
NATO, Ukraine and other officials said they expect the parties to a security-guarantee compact to include the US, UK, Germany, and France.
European Pravda
Monday, 22 May 2023
NATO key membe have preliminarily supported the idea of providing Ukraine with security guarantees prior to its membership based on the Kyiv Security Compact.
The security agreement, based on a proposal known as the Kyiv Security Compact, is expected to be signed following the NATO summit
According to The Wall Street Journal, the concept related to Ukraine's further NATO membership is based on the Kyiv Security "Compact" from September 2022 by a working group led by the Head of the Office of the President, Andrii Yermak, and former NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen.
An Israeli-style security agreement for Ukraine would give priority to arms transfers and advanced technology, Polish President Andrzej Duda said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal. Discussions on this matter are ongoing, including during President Joe Biden's visit to Warsaw in February.
According to Western officials interviewed by the WSJ, such an agreement for Ukraine could impact the course of the war with Russia, hindering Vladimir Putin's intentions to drag it out with the hope of undermining political support for Ukraine in the US and certain European countries.
An American official, speaking anonymously, confirmed that discussions about the "Israeli model" of security for Ukraine are taking place, but there are no specifics at present.
Senior officials in several European capitals, including Paris and Berlin, said they agreed in principle with the plan, which would involve a series of bilateral assurances within a multilateral framework.
NATO, Ukraine and other officials said they expect the parties to a security-guarantee compact to include the US, UK, Germany, and France.
European Pravda
0
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:27 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
And you don't think that's weird?
To attack a country who has invaded you? Not in the fricking slightest. Explain why you're so perplexed about it.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:30 am to MoarKilometers
When you ask a poitard question it only encompasses them to put in a thousand word response that nobody reads
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:34 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Roger can just learn Mandarin and go to China if he wants to live under Communism. The rest of us want to live in a world where America is the strongest nation in the world -- that strength is absolutely dependent upon our alliances and our ability to project force around the world.
The sweet spot is to go live in an advanced nation under American protection whereby you get the benefits and have minimal asked of you in return
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:34 am to jeffsdad
quote:
them to put in a thousand word response that nobody reads
Its generally accepted the average reading level of the very average American is the 7th and 8th grade level.
Seeing the confusion about simple terms like non intervention, I assume most on this board read at a level much lower than that.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:39 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
And you don't think that's weird?
you don't win a war handcuffing yourself.
see korea and vietnam....
you can tell this is a political move as "only Russian" troops have crossed the border.
if this is indeed a war for Ukraine's existence as a country, you don't win a war by attacking where the enemy wants/expects you to attack, yu attack where he doesn't expect you to attack.
in order to end this war and save lives on both sides, you need to force one or both sides to come back off their negotiating demands. Right now russia wants all of the partially occupied oblasts given to russia and a russian puppet placed in Kiev, and Ukraine wants a return to 2012 borders plus reoperations from Russia. both sides are far apart.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:39 am to MoarKilometers
quote:
To attack a country who has invaded you? Not in the fricking slightest. Explain why you're so perplexed about it.
Pretty sure that’s not what he meant by weird.
What’s weird is that Ukraine, supposedly its own sovereign country, needs our permission to fight back against a country that invaded them.
Of course they do need our permission because we have a vested interest in the war not expanding any further and if Ukraine wants any chance at all against Russia then they are completely dependent on the generosity of the American taxpayer. Which begs the question, is Ukraine even really a sovereign country if they can’t defend their own country without our help or even permission.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:42 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Which begs the question, is Ukraine even really a sovereign country if they can’t defend their own country without our help or even permission.
This general question could be asked of just about any but a dozen or so countries on earth, who would not need outside intervention to stave off an invasion.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:43 am to lowspark12
quote:
This general question could be asked of just about any but a dozen or so countries on earth, who would not need outside intervention to stave off an invasion.
Okay so we all agree that Ukraine is really nothing more than a vassal state of the United States?
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:46 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Okay so we all agree that Ukraine is really nothing more than a vassal state of the United States?
Its their own words. Keep them talking long enough and they'll figure it out.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:48 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Okay so we all agree that Ukraine is really nothing more than a vassal state of the United States?
And Russia is really nothing more than a vassal state of China.
Ok back to the war.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:48 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Pretty sure that’s not what he meant by weird.
I'm even more sure he had the opportunity to answer my question, but ducked it
quote:
What’s weird is that Ukraine, supposedly its own sovereign country, needs our permission to fight back against a country that invaded them.
So you're basing your argument on something you don't definitely know, ie Ukraine needing permission to attack/defend themselves?
quote:
Of course they do need our permission because we have a vested interest in the war not expanding any further and if Ukraine wants any chance at all against Russia then they are completely dependent on the generosity of the American taxpayer. Which begs the question, is Ukraine even really a sovereign country if they can’t defend their own country without our help or even permission.
And now we've shifted the goal posts to include without our help. Glad you stretched a little before the mental gymnastics.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:49 am to tigeraddict
quote:
you don't win a war handcuffing yourself.
Then why is Ukraine depending on Western approval? Sounds like self handicapping to me.
Why wouldn't you want Ukraine free to fight war as they choose? You know as well as I that this is imply a proxy war.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:49 am to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Okay so we all agree that Ukraine is really nothing more than a vassal state of the United States?
No more than we were a vassal state of France post revolutionary war
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:53 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Then why is Ukraine depending on Western approval? Sounds like self handicapping to me.
If you have vendor that says "you can't resell my product and if you do I'll no longer sell to you" does this mean you are now a vassal to your vendor?
Because that's what's happening. The "West" will continue to give weapons to Ukraine so long as they don't do X, Y, and Z. If they do, they no longer will receive support. As much as you bash peoples intelligence the last several post you seem to miss this.
So no, they don't need permission, but if they want continued support they have to play the game.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:53 am to MoarKilometers
You can’t talk logic with this folks.
Coalition warfare is a hallmark of the western style of fighting. This goes back to the Greeks… but was perfected in the 20th century. It’s how the militaries of western democracies operate.
It’s what separates us from the mouth breathing Asian hoards.
Coalition warfare is a hallmark of the western style of fighting. This goes back to the Greeks… but was perfected in the 20th century. It’s how the militaries of western democracies operate.
It’s what separates us from the mouth breathing Asian hoards.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:54 am to MoarKilometers
quote:
No more than we were a vassal state of France post revolutionary war
You are going to make Roger mad, he doesnt have any fancy book learnin and he is very proud of that.
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:54 am to StormyMcMan
quote:
So no, they don't need permission, but if they want continued support they have to play the game.
What’s the difference?
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:57 am to GeauxxxTigers23
For our very heavily invested pro-Ukraine folks - do you agree with the sentiment that the US may have an interest in (and motivation) of a prolonged conflict?
That’s a loaded question to an extent of course, perhaps more simply - the US goal isn’t an immediate and definitive victory for Ukraine? Which still leaves the option of an eventual victory for Ukraine?
That’s a loaded question to an extent of course, perhaps more simply - the US goal isn’t an immediate and definitive victory for Ukraine? Which still leaves the option of an eventual victory for Ukraine?
Posted on 5/22/23 at 9:59 am to Pettifogger
Apparently, a new video from two Free Russia Legion fighters. They say the border is broken, Putin is unable to respond. One is wearing the Free Russia Legion insignia on his chest.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1660660799227015168?s=20
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1660660799227015168?s=20
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