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Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:45 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
GOP_Tiger
Very well, I will abide by Chickens wishes
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:46 am to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
I’m not really seeing much or any of that in this thread. I don’t think anyone is arguing that russia coerced or otherwise brought the US purposefully into its involvement in this war.
Can you link to people in this thread saying that russia wants the US involved or started this current conflict with the US?
Well sure, I can read.
Here is what I said:
quote:
It will only be because of our proxy war with Russia that we should not have started. No matter what you think about the Ukraine situation, staying out of it was the best move.
That comment got 6 different responses from people who clearly disagree with me, and which I have been responding to and which you disingenuously stated did not happen. Maybe you should try harder to follow along with the thread. Every single one of these people is arguing against my statement that we should not have started this proxy war with Russia. They are saying we SHOULD have started it.
Tigeralum2008 - remember, this is specifically in response to my post talking about the USA's being involvement.
quote:
Hate to break your narrative but we have been in a political and physical proxy war with Russia since Putin took power
Having Ukraine helps ensure the “buffer” between Russia and Poland is on our side. Ukraine also has untapped natural resources that the West could help them cultivate. That plus their agriculture
Defeating Russia in Ukraine will be a major blow to the legitimacy of BRICS
CitizenK - remember, this is specifically in response to my post talking about the USA's being involvement.
quote:
You should have been paying attention to this thread rather than Politard board.
Meh, on BRICS being more than a fantasy. To be a global currency center, Rule of Law, has to be as solid as in US and UK. This is why London is the center of the world for ship/cargo insurance and the Dollar the safest investment in the world. Rots of Ruck getting rule of law in Russia, China, India or even Brazil. India and China hate each other and regularly have clashes at the border. Russia is losing money with every barrel of oil sold as the low prices then more after heavy discounts.
Ukraine has signed agreements with 3 western companies to develop its oil and gas massive reserves, then Russia invaded in 2014. Russia doesn't have the technology to do this. Venezuela wants to make nice with the USA due the Chinese and Russian concessions for oilfields there don't have the technology to bring them back.
I could go on and on about the importance of Ukraine to the West and why its population (even ethnic Russians) overwhelmingly support being away from the Russian sphere of influence. Even Kazakhstan is wanting less of Russia and it is an economic ally ON PAPER.
doubleb - remember, this is specifically in response to my post talking about the USA's being involvement.
quote:
No, Russia started the war not the US. To say otherwise is wrong.
No question Russia had their reasons to launch attacks against Ukraine in 2014 and again in 2022, but they made the decision.
Furthermore, we didn’t really get involved in a major way until several weeks after the big 2022 Russian offensive
and after Ukraine successful three Russia away from Kiev. Ukrainian resolve and Russian brutality pushed us further in.
These comments are all on page 2585.
This post was edited on 3/30/23 at 9:47 am
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:47 am to doubleb
quote:
But I can not accept anyone who blames the situation we have now on the US. Russia created the situation by attacking Ukraine in 2014 and then going all in in 2022.
I think he just acknowledged Russia started the conflict with Ukraine, so I think everyone is on the same page. Your third sentence probably sums up his concern (and mine).
I actually appreciate the ROI argument quite a bit. I simply question whether this is really a meaningful investment we needed, I question whether the facts supporting the idea of our "return" are as rosy as claimed, and I am simply dumbfounded that despite the negative and unintended consequences that followed nearly every US foray into someone else's armed conflict, we're just blithely looking past that to focus on the near term.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:48 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
This is false
Wrong
quote:
. Russia did not invade Ukraine with the goal of fighting the USA. We are doing the exact same stupid crap that kept us in the Middle East for decades.
No they didn’t. And I doubt they felt that Poland, France, England, Germany, Spain, Finland, Sweden and all the other Western nations would jump to Ukraine’s side either.
You act as if it is just the US helping, but you have nations besides us, NATO nations and even nations like Sweden and Finland who jumped in. The US is not the lone wolf here. We aren’t in it by ourselves. Other nations are involved in a major way too, we just have more to give.
Putin miscalculated.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:48 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
This is false. Russia did not invade Ukraine with the goal of fighting the USA. We are doing the exact same stupid crap that kept us in the Middle East for decades.
Russia invaded Ukraine because they wanted to. They factored in the resolve of the west and figured the US would complain but not actually do anything. In 2008 we basically did nothing
Even Russia's initial tactics were designed around a quick victory to not allow the west to do anything.
When Ukraine stopped the hail marry assault on kviv and held the line after the initial surprise it should the west helping was an option
The us and the west has ample reason to help. Stopping aggression and showing resolve in going so shows the world that this is not acceptable. China is watching. The west doing nothing but sanctions and China is moving on Taiwan when they are ready.
The west doing more than sanctions and China is rethinking military vs long game on Taiwan.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:49 am to doubleb
quote:
And yes when we saw the Ukrainians were putting up a hell of a fight and when we saw how brutal Russia was stacking; we did get actively involved in helping Ukraine.
Ukraine has never had a chance in this conflict without a global war, and still does not.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:49 am to doubleb
quote:
. Russia did not invade Ukraine with the goal of fighting the USA. We are doing the exact same stupid crap that kept us in the Middle East for decades.
No they didn’t.
Correct, Russia didn't force us to do a damn thing.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:50 am to tigeraddict
quote:
They factored in the resolve of the west and figured the US would complain but not actually do anything.
And they've been right. We haven't done anything. All we've done is spend money.
quote:
The us and the west has ample reason to help. Stopping aggression and showing resolve in going so shows the world that this is not acceptable. China is watching. The west doing nothing but sanctions and China is moving on Taiwan when they are ready.
In reality, what is happening is China is about to broker peace between Ukraine and Russia while we take a step down on the world stage. But at least we sent a bunch of money and weapons to Ukraine, right?
This post was edited on 3/30/23 at 9:52 am
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:51 am to GOP_Tiger
You in particular regularly advocate for what the US should be doing that we're not doing. It's explicitly and undeniably political.
Again, mischaracterizing the arguments of others' because you don't like dissenting voices is incredibly disingenuous. I don't like discussing this on PT because I don't want a political debate. I want a foreign policy discussion, which this thread should be the place for.
The reality is none of us will stick too long over here because, due to sheer numbers, it's suffocating for anyone who questions the prevailing consensus. So I don't think you have to worry too much about this derailing your thread.
Again, mischaracterizing the arguments of others' because you don't like dissenting voices is incredibly disingenuous. I don't like discussing this on PT because I don't want a political debate. I want a foreign policy discussion, which this thread should be the place for.
The reality is none of us will stick too long over here because, due to sheer numbers, it's suffocating for anyone who questions the prevailing consensus. So I don't think you have to worry too much about this derailing your thread.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:51 am to tigeraddict
quote:ding ding ding
Stopping aggression and showing resolve in going so shows the world that this is not acceptable
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:52 am to Pettifogger
quote:
Again, mischaracterizing the arguments of others' because you don't like dissenting voices is incredibly disingenuous. I don't like discussing this on PT because I don't want a political debate. I want a foreign policy discussion, which this thread should be the place for.
The entire characterization of "no politics" on the OT has turned into this.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:52 am to RogerTheShrubber
If you look at the Ukranian conflict from the calculus of politics, there is no other conclusion you can make about US involvement other than to say it's good politics.
We have spent a very small amount of money and not a drop of blood to weaken China's most important ally and remove them from the chess board for the next 10 years.
We have spent a very small amount of money and not a drop of blood to weaken China's most important ally and remove them from the chess board for the next 10 years.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:53 am to BambiisDead
quote:
Weakened in the sense they cannot offer meaningful military aid to China when the 2nd Pacific War begins.
Weakened in the sense they have been permanently removed from European influence, and Europe returned to US dependency.
Those were our strategic goals from the beginning, and have been an outstanding success.
Russia is now stuck in a bloody mess that it will take a very long time to untangle itself from.
We aren't succeeding in any of these goals.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:53 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
. But at least we sent a bunch of money and weapons to Ukraine, right?
The US strategy against Ukraine is attrition, but Ukraine has fewer bodies to let rot on a battlefield than Russia.
Our strategy is to extend the war as long as possible.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:54 am to facher08
quote:
In regards to tactics, not politics. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.
They're inseparable and you very well know that. Pretending "if Congress would get off its arse and start delivering ________" oh and "here's a comment by a politician on that topic" isn't political but "This may be a bridge too far for the US because down the line I can see ________" is political is just patently absurd.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:54 am to BambiisDead
quote:
We have spent a very small amount of money and not a drop of blood to weaken China's most important ally and remove them from the chess board for the next 10 years.
China and Russia were not strong allies prior to this. You talk like someone who only started paying attention last year.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:54 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
We aren't succeeding in any of these goals.
Says who?
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:54 am to BambiisDead
quote:
We have spent a very small amount of money
We have sent Ukraine an estimated $76.8 billion dollars.
Posted on 3/30/23 at 9:54 am to facher08
quote:
No one here is scared of dissenting opinions
Of course you are.
quote:
they are often just trolls
And this proves it.
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