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Posted on 2/22/23 at 10:37 am to SlowFlowPro
Its absolutely a proxy war.
https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780199670840.001.0001/acref-9780199670840-e-1742
The US and Russia have fought proxy wars for decades, this one is just a more intense version.
https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780199670840.001.0001/acref-9780199670840-e-1742
quote:
Proxy wars are conflicts in which a third party intervenes indirectly in a pre-existing war in order to influence the strategic outcome in favour of its preferred faction.
The US and Russia have fought proxy wars for decades, this one is just a more intense version.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 10:50 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
At this point is an important qualifier, because it did not start as a proxy war. Also, I'm sure Ukraine would prefer a proxy war (and Western support) than subjugation to an invading Russia.
Exactly, it’s semantics.
The war was started in 2014 and ratcheted way up in 2022 all before massive aid from the West was provided.
Ukrainians were fighting and dying before there was any aid given from the West.
Call it what you want now, but if Russia had stayed on their side of the fence we wouldn’t have this war.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 10:51 am to LookSquirrel
quote:
I would be interested in your thoughts. Especially those of you with knowledge of Tanks. There are some interesting videos that show some key differences.
I don’t have detailed knowledge of tanks but this just seems like some excuses for how the Russians don’t value human life. I’ll agree America hasn’t experienced an existential war since the civil war, but we also flipped manufacturing on a dime to out produce everyone, Russia included, during WWII so that excuse for manufacturing is bull imo.
This concept of “total war” doctrine as being counter to not valuing human life doesn’t make sense because logically you should choose a more efficient doctrine to preserve life and achieve your objective. They have a long history of mistreatment of enemy combatants/civilians and their own soldiers via shooting them in the back in retreat.
It’s the Russians, not their doctrine. Their doctrine is a function of themselves.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 10:52 am to Chromdome35
quote:
Proxy wars are conflicts in which a third party intervenes indirectly in a pre-existing war in order to influence the strategic outcome in favour of its preferred faction.
So WWI and WWII are two examples of proxy wars that we have fought.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 10:53 am to doubleb
quote:
Call it what you want now, but if Russia had stayed on their side of the fence we wouldn’t have this war.
Not exactly. None of this occurs if Obama doesn’t authorize and assist in the removal of Russian friendly president Viktor Yanukovych.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 10:54 am to Nigel Farage
quote:He also said that Speed Queen appliances were the tits until about five years ago.
“Quantity has a quality all unto its own” Napoleon
Every good line in history since Moses has at least a scintilla of plagiarism in it.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 10:55 am to SlowFlowPro
Roger's claim that we are "using Ukrainian young men's bodies to fight a war with Russia" glosses over that tiny point that it is Ukraine that is being invaded and those Ukrainian young men are using their young bodies to protect their own country, their homes, their families.
That we are helping them in their effort does not seem to me to be anything sinister, although we stand to benefit by their efforts.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 10:56 am to DabosDynasty
quote:
It’s the Russians, not their doctrine. Their doctrine is a function of themselves.
I am tempted to believe this is a difference in the value of an individual human being. It seems consistent with their history, their military strategies, and their governments.
Most of us fail to understand that the deep respect for the value of an individual human life is not a universal value.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 10:57 am to TigerOnTheMountain
quote:
Not exactly. None of this occurs if Obama doesn’t authorize and assist in the removal of Russian friendly president Viktor Yanukovych.
And if Russia had not put their guy in charge of Ukraine and interrupted the Ukraine shift to the EU the Russian puppet wouldn’t have lost the backing of his people.
Besides as aggressive as Putin had been, I believe he would have moved on Crimea and the Donbas anyway.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 10:59 am to DabosDynasty
Yeah, the Russians still haven't fully mobilized a year into this 'total war,' SMO, or whatever it is. It's either logistically or politically unfeasible or both. Russia doesn't have the industrial base to produce what it needs in the way of military hardware. Most of what it had during the cold war has been stripped and sold off by oligarchs. This total war doctrine is more aspirational than factual, and always was--even during WWII, which Russia would have lost without massive outside assistance.
That said, Russia could still come out on top if the west falters, which is what Putin is banking on.
That said, Russia could still come out on top if the west falters, which is what Putin is banking on.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 11:03 am to doubleb
quote:
So WWI and WWII are two examples of proxy wars that we have fought.
They were proxy wars until the point America committed its own troops. At that point, it isn't a proxy war for us anymore, it is an actual war.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 11:07 am to Chromdome35
quote:
They were proxy wars until the point America committed its own troops. At that point, it isn't a proxy war for us anymore, it is an actual war.
Yes, they began as proxy wars and evolved into a war. Vietnam is another example.
The danger that needs to be avoided now is actually entering the war by sending troops. Aid is one thing I support. I do not support sending troops.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 11:10 am to TigerOnTheMountain
quote:
Not exactly. None of this occurs if Obama doesn’t authorize and assist in the removal of Russian friendly president Viktor Yanukovych.
here we go again. Maidan occurred in 2004/5. Putin was able to get a puppet elected with heavy influence from oligarchs beholden to Russia. The UKRAINIANS demonstrated and where shot in the streets with snipers from Yank. Yank immediately fled to his hero, Putin after demonstrations weren't stopped by his bullets.
Let's not forget that even Donbas voted overwhelmingly for independence from Russia, Crimea too. It's false narrative to say that more than a handful in those "Russian Ethnic" areas want to be under Russia.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 11:10 am to CitizenK
quote:
Still the overwhelmed Germany with numbers up to the very end. Marching units through minefields to clear a path was quite common by Russians. The only thing they learned was to mass overwhelming forces, which was all they have ever done.
Joseph Stalin: “Quantity has a quality all its own.”
Some things never change.....
Posted on 2/22/23 at 11:12 am to doubleb
quote:
The danger that needs to be avoided now is actually entering the war by sending troops. Aid is one thing I support. I do not support sending troops.
I could not agree more.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 11:12 am to molsusports
quote:
I am tempted to believe this is a difference in the value of an individual human being. It seems consistent with their history, their military strategies, and their governments.
I absolutely believe it is. I think it’s a different culture and they have also not evolved from WWI and prior tactics where human life was also far less valued than today.
quote:
Most of us fail to understand that the deep respect for the value of an individual human life is not a universal value.
Agree completely. I still take it for granted at times, but reality is in total population of the earth our value of human life is in the minority.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 11:15 am to tigeraddict
Even Russians have limits. The only ones doing human wave attacks are convicts in a march or die scenario. I question whether ordinary Russians would be down for that.
Posted on 2/22/23 at 11:46 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
CrisO_wiki
@ChrisO_wiki
/ Cadets at the Moscow Police College have reported an attempt to forcibly mobilise them en masse under false pretences. They say they were locked in a hall while attempts were made to get them to sign up to join the army. They had to call the police to be released. ??
Posted on 2/22/23 at 11:47 am to CitizenK
I’m well aware of the neo-con/lib narrative thanks The only thing you’re missing is a white dry erase board.
None of what you said has frick all to do with western expansion violating multiple NATO-Russia agreements. You can place blame solely on Russia for deteriorating relations over the last twenty years or so if you want, but you sound like an expansionist hack when you refuse to even acknowledge the role the US and NATO has played.
The only thing you’re missing is a white dry erase board. None of what you said has frick all to do with western expansion violating multiple NATO-Russia agreements. You can place blame solely on Russia for deteriorating relations over the last twenty years or so if you want, but you sound like an expansionist hack when you refuse to even acknowledge the role the US and NATO has played.
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