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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 7/12/22 at 7:45 pm to SOSFAN
Posted on 7/12/22 at 7:45 pm to SOSFAN
quote:
Our CIA overthrew Ukraine leadership in 2014. We are just as much at fault as anyone.
This is such bullshite. Russia finally succeeded in implanting their stooge Yanukovych through meddling. Yankukovych to my knowledge has been the only pro Russian leader Ukraine has had since the Cold War broke up..probably because Russian intelligence had him innstalled mob style to break up Ukraine's obvious tilt towards the west. Why don't I ever see people like bring up that Russia poisoned, ie tried to assassinate, the pro-Ukrainian President Yuschenko. THAT was the coup. To the extent the CIA helped the people of Ukraine kick out an illegimate Russian puppet, fine by me.
Edit: I'm not accusing you of being pro-Russian or anyhting. I respect your position. But the "2014" trope that keeps getting trotted out mindlessly is bullshite.
This post was edited on 7/12/22 at 8:03 pm
3
Posted on 7/12/22 at 7:49 pm to WeeWee
quote:
If you think that the CIA overthrew Yanakovich then you are an idiot.
And ignorant as to what Paul Manafort was up to over there as well.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 7:50 pm to REG861
Exactly
Posted on 7/12/22 at 7:58 pm to AGGIES
quote:
If you think that the CIA overthrew Yanakovich then you are an idiot.
And ignorant as to what Paul Manafort was up to over there as well.
Plus I'm pretty sure Yankovich cooked his own goose when he abandoned his post and fled the country.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 8:10 pm to SOSFAN
quote:
America shouldn't be either.
Putin's narrative is that Ukraine was not an independent nation but an essential part of Russia, one that did not have the right to a separate identity and existence. His view is that democracy isn't amenable to Slavic peoples, who instead need strong leadership from Moscow.
The fledgling democracy that is Ukraine does indeed pose a threat to Putin. Not because of his ridiculous assertions that Ukraine is a fascist state full of neo-Nazis, committing genocide against the Russian speaking population of Donbas. But rather, that success of a democratic Ukraine and perhaps joining the EU suggests that similiar could happen in Russia, which would spell the end of Putin and Putinism. THIS is why he would never have settled for a neutral Ukraine, even without NATO membership. As long as Ukraine is moving towards full democracy and the western world, it undermines his narrative and needs to be eliminated.
Nevermind that the U.S. basically defaulted on its security assurances initially (Budapest Memorandum) with Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea. Illegal being the operative word. There basically isn't anyone to enforce international law and a rules based world order other than the U.S. and NATO. If we were to stand idly by, the message to the world would be that American promises of support are hollow and cooperation among the western democracies is non-existent. Every fricking despot in the world would be on the warpath, including China with regards to Taiwan. A successful Russia, allied with China would be disastrous.
Russia is paying an exorbitantly high price for its illegal war. THAT'S the message to send.
That's not being a neocon or war monger. That's just expressing reality.
Ukraine matters...
Posted on 7/12/22 at 8:10 pm to REG861
quote:
To the extent the CIA helped the people of Ukraine kick out an illegimate Russian puppet, fine by me.
CIA didn’t “help” the people of Ukraine oust anyone out of the goodness of their hearts. Whatever they did was deemed a national security interest by the powers that be. That’s what they exist for.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 8:11 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/16/26 at 11:27 am
Posted on 7/12/22 at 8:14 pm to MNCTigah
quote:
There basically isn't anyone to enforce international law and a rules based world order other than the U.S. and NATO. If we were to stand idly by, the message to the world would be that American promises of support are hollow and cooperation among the western democracies is non-existent.
quote:
That's not being a neocon
Hate to break it to you man, but that’s exactly what a neocon is. Not expressing an opinion on whether you’re right or wrong. But that’s absolutely a neocon point of view.
quote:
If we were to stand idly by, the message to the world would be that American promises of support are hollow and cooperation among the western democracies is non-existent. Every fricking despot in the world would be on the warpath, including China with regards to Taiwan.
Dude we’ve abandoned more groups of people since “neoconservativism” became the de facto American foreign policy its almost comical. And if the war makes a turn for the worse in Ukraine we’ll abandon them too. Don’t be naive.
This post was edited on 7/12/22 at 8:18 pm
Posted on 7/12/22 at 8:27 pm to Stidham8
quote:
Quick reality check for the board.
*looks at your Bama conspiracy posts that litter tSECRant*
Ya, uh, ok dude. You're a stable and trustworthy poster.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 8:42 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
CIA didn’t “help” the people of Ukraine oust anyone out of the goodness of their hearts. Whatever they did was deemed a national security interest by the powers that be. That’s what they exist for.
Im not arguing it was a humanitarian gesture. You’re arguing semantics. The point is that the “coup” line falsely implies we went in there and disrupted the legitimate state of affairs in Ukraine and things haven’t been the same since . That couldn’t be farther from the truth. Yanukovychs phony presidency was the culmination of several years of a Russian campaign to lodge a puppet in Ukraine. A campaign that included attempted assassinations of leading candidates and terrorizing voters through violent intimidation tactics. Every president has before and after has been generally pro- Western. That tells you all you need to know.
This post was edited on 7/12/22 at 8:44 pm
Posted on 7/12/22 at 8:46 pm to GeauxxxTigers23
quote:
Hate to break it to you man, but that’s exactly what a neocon is. Not expressing an opinion on whether you’re right or wrong. But that’s absolutely a neocon point of view.
My definition would be the assertive promotion of democracy and U.S. national interest in international affairs through military means.
We're providing aid. It's not a military excursion. I'm actually a humanitarian. But I can parse and form opinions specific to individual situations.
quote:
Dude we’ve abandoned more groups of people since “neoconservativism” became the de facto American foreign policy its almost comical. And if the war makes a turn for the worse in Ukraine we’ll abandon them too. Don’t be naive
Ukraine may indeed collapse, and we'd most assuredly stop aid. That's not the point. The message conveyed is that there's a high price to pay for naked aggression, regardless of the end result.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 8:54 pm to REG861
Yanukovych played both sides like Lukashenko.
Now look at where they are. They showed their true colors.
Now look at where they are. They showed their true colors.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 9:08 pm to MNCTigah
Neocon was code word for JEW because Democrats couldn't come out and say Jew and it was in regards to the Jewish members of the Reagan Admin. Long before your time.
Reagan was very hawkish on bringing down the Evil Empire but subtly doing so.
Reagan was very hawkish on bringing down the Evil Empire but subtly doing so.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 9:10 pm to CitizenK
Reagan would be run out of the GOP for being a globalist RINO today.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 9:15 pm to WeeWee
I am hearing, after a week, that Ukraine is pounding the ever living frick out of Stanislav on the coast for over a week. they are finally breaking through towards Kherson with the bridge at the dam up the river now unpassable. Taking Kherson will essentially be an encirclement of a large concentration of Russian military located to the north of there, blocked by the Dnepr river and its lake behind the dam along with Ukrainian forces on 3 sides.
The only bridge now is at Kherson.
The only bridge now is at Kherson.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 9:18 pm to MNCTigah
quote:
My definition would be the assertive promotion of democracy and U.S. national interest in international affairs through military means.
Well unfortunately for you, you don’t get to just make up your own definitions.
quote:It’s exactly the point
Ukraine may indeed collapse, and we'd most assuredly stop aid. That's not the point.
quote:The message will be that when the going gets tough and it’s not politically expedient for us to continue to support you we’ll bail. See nearly every conflict that we’ve been involved in or even supported over the past 40 years.
The message conveyed is that there's a high price to pay for naked aggression, regardless of the end result.
The Kurds in Iraq 1, Somalia, Iraq 2, Afghanistan, Yemen famine, Syria. Why do you think this will be any different? Because Ukraine is white?
Posted on 7/12/22 at 9:41 pm to CitizenK
quote:
Neocon was code word for JEW because Democrats couldn't come out and say Jew and it was in regards to the Jewish members of the Reagan Admin. Long before your time.
It is a Jewish movement, sure, but that’s not an accurate description. Not all Jews were neocons, there was no neoconservative concensus.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 10:01 pm to CitizenK
This is interesting. There definitely have been creeping gains by the Ukrainians near Kherson. No one is denying that. But it appeared for the longest time maybe to be a strategy to show some life for the West and divert Russian resources from the Donbas meat grinder to relieve pressure.
The thoughts of either of the two armies breaking into the rear and achieving operational maneuver, much less encirclement is difficult to imagine. If anyone had the chance it was by the Russians in the Lyschank salient.
But Zelenaky speaks of his million man army getting ready to strike the Kherson region. Propaganda of course. I'd be shocked right now if either side could get 15,000 men in a mechanized formation to attempt a breakthrough.
Nevertheless they are obviously planning something, even if just to buy time.
Rather than an operational pause I think it's better to view the recent relative lack of offensive operations from the Russians as a secondary culmination point. They are a spent force it appears, at least for offensive ground operations.
But unlike their first culmination point outside the gates of Kiev and Kharkov, Ukraine in my estimation lacks the ability to eject the Russians back to Belaurus and to the Russian border outside Kharkov as we saw in March.
I hope what you're hearing is correct but having one route into Kherson and then swing around and trap or force a Russian withdrawal towards Crimea seems ambitious.
But it may be worth a shot if they have the capability to apply maximum pressure at one point and still the troops and equipment to effect a breach.
The alternative, digging in along a vast front from Kharkov to Kherson outnumbered and outgunned and hoping that Western artillery can somehow change things enough is not ideal either.
By all accounts Ukraine was on the ropes and now this pause. Seems to me the Russians as many suspected are just as spent. We'll find out soon. As I recall it took almost a month for Russia to reorganize for it's focused push into unconquered Donbas. I don't think a resumption to an offensive will take so along this time. It will he interesting to see who strikes first.
The thoughts of either of the two armies breaking into the rear and achieving operational maneuver, much less encirclement is difficult to imagine. If anyone had the chance it was by the Russians in the Lyschank salient.
But Zelenaky speaks of his million man army getting ready to strike the Kherson region. Propaganda of course. I'd be shocked right now if either side could get 15,000 men in a mechanized formation to attempt a breakthrough.
Nevertheless they are obviously planning something, even if just to buy time.
Rather than an operational pause I think it's better to view the recent relative lack of offensive operations from the Russians as a secondary culmination point. They are a spent force it appears, at least for offensive ground operations.
But unlike their first culmination point outside the gates of Kiev and Kharkov, Ukraine in my estimation lacks the ability to eject the Russians back to Belaurus and to the Russian border outside Kharkov as we saw in March.
I hope what you're hearing is correct but having one route into Kherson and then swing around and trap or force a Russian withdrawal towards Crimea seems ambitious.
But it may be worth a shot if they have the capability to apply maximum pressure at one point and still the troops and equipment to effect a breach.
The alternative, digging in along a vast front from Kharkov to Kherson outnumbered and outgunned and hoping that Western artillery can somehow change things enough is not ideal either.
By all accounts Ukraine was on the ropes and now this pause. Seems to me the Russians as many suspected are just as spent. We'll find out soon. As I recall it took almost a month for Russia to reorganize for it's focused push into unconquered Donbas. I don't think a resumption to an offensive will take so along this time. It will he interesting to see who strikes first.
Posted on 7/12/22 at 10:05 pm to Shreveportolewarskul
quote:
Shreveportolewarskul
Thank you for the relatively unbiased assessment. This is the type of content this thread needs.
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