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re: June 4, 1942 - The Battle of Midway
Posted on 6/4/24 at 11:32 am to OK Roughneck
Posted on 6/4/24 at 11:32 am to OK Roughneck
quote:
I still like the 70's midway movie
Still angers me that they felt the need to introduce the stupid love story nonsense in there.
But real combat footage >>>>>>>>> CGI, every damn time.
1
Posted on 6/4/24 at 11:33 am to TigerHornII
quote:
Lord Vader makes an excellent point. At one point during the Solomons campaign, we were down to just one damaged carrier operational in the Pacific. The Japanese made a number of strategic mistakes in the battles that cost them the island, and, ultimately, the war. We likewise made more than our share of unforced errors.
Thanks. And don’t get me wrong. The importance of Midway cannot be overstated. Had we not won at Midway, the Solomons Campaign would not have been possible, at least not for another year or more until we rebuilt our navy. If the Japanese had those 4 fleet carriers and their highly experienced and skilled air groups, there’s no way we’d have even considered going on the offensive in the Solomons in August of 42. But, if we’re talking true turning points of the war, the turning point was not Midway, it was the Solomons. Midway paved the way for the turning point. But it wasn’t the actual turning point.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 11:44 am to Liberator
quote:
Events started disastrously for our ballsy (but sacrificed) slow torpedo dive-bombers, getting shot down one after another like pigeons...UNTIL we got lucky...
The slow speed of the Devastator is a bit misunderstood today. Torpedo bombers by necessity had to go slow and low when on their attack runs. If they came in too high or too fast, their torpedo would not run true to its target. What cost the Devastators at Midway was they came in unescorted. No torpedo bomber of that age would have fared any better under those circumstances. But what made their attacks ineffective was the horrid reliability of the Mk.14 torpedo. To call it as useless as teets on a boar hog is an insult to teets on boar hogs. I can’t remember the exact number, but I believe the dud rate of the Mk.14 was north of 80%. The problem was its magnetic detonator. It simply didn’t work. The Mk.14 also had a tendency to run too deep and thus pass under its target. Had the Navy addressed the Mk.14 issue before June 1942, the Devastators would have still been slaughtered. But their attacks would have at least been effective.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 11:54 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
So, while Midway was one of the greatest victories in all of naval warfare and rightly should be recognized as such, it really wasn’t the true turning point of the war in the Pacific. The real turning point was the Solomons Campaign, and specifically the Guadalcanal Campaign.
I would argue that without the outcome at Midway, Guadalcanal is delayed. The Solomon's area was the navy's operation zone (Halsey) and New Guinea/Rubal area were the army's (McArthur)
even after Midway, Halsey was still very protective of his carriers as he was still at a disadvantage vs land air (truk/rabal) that he only allowed the carriers to protect the Guadalcanal landings for 72 hrs before withdrawing. had the 4 fleet carriers Japan lost at Midway been available, Halsey doest risk the landings.
The Solomon's campaign is what stopped Japan and put them on the defense. The Solomon's was a meat grinder for both sides, but the Allies could out build and out man Japan's war industry. US success in the solomans stopped Japans thrust towards Port Moresby
war planning had 1944 as the US pacific offensive starting with war production. so midway allowed earlier advances
Posted on 6/4/24 at 12:00 pm to Ace Midnight
Don't underestimate the intelligence work here. Naval intelligence knew an attack was coming, but not the target. If I remember my facts correctly, they knew the target was XY. They put out messages about different facilities being down. When they picked up a message from the Japanese that XY had a problem with its desalination plant, they knew it was Midway. Without this knowledge, the U.S. forces would not have been prepared for the attack.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 12:00 pm to Locoguan0
quote:
they knew the target was XY.
AF*
Posted on 6/4/24 at 12:07 pm to AUriptide
This three part series on you tube is quite interesting and worth watching
Battle of Midway from the Japanese perspective
Battle of Midway from the Japanese perspective
Posted on 6/4/24 at 12:15 pm to choppadocta
quote:
If you're interested in the Battle of Midway from the Japanese perspective I highly recommend the book "Shattered Sword" by Anthony Tully and John Parshall
Excellent eye opening book that debunked a ton of myths. Japan could’ve easily won Midway had they not launched the attacks on the Aleutians. A few carriers went out there. Plus, if they thought the battle was so pivotal, they could’ve brought the Shokaku and Zuikaku to really gain carrier superiority. I could go on, but y’all should read the book.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 12:15 pm to tigeraddict
quote:
would argue that without the outcome at Midway, Guadalcanal is delayed. The Solomon's area was the navy's operation zone (Halsey) and New Guinea/Rubal area were the army's (McArthur)
That’s the point I was making. Our victory at Midway allowed us to on the offensive in the Solomons. Had we lost at Midway Guadalcanal would not have happened at lest for another year. So Midway paved the way for the Solomons. But it was in the Solomons where the true turning point of the war happened.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 12:20 pm to Ace Midnight
The balls it takes to dive down from 10,000 feet in a metal box to drop a bomb as streams of tracers come right at your face. Or to fly just off the water at a wall of lead and fire to drop a torpedo. It's basically suicide and these boys still did it. I guess it was easy for them when Pearl harbor was only 7 months back.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 12:32 pm to jcaz
quote:
The balls it takes to dive down from 10,000 feet in a metal box to drop a bomb as streams of tracers come right at your face. Or to fly just off the water at a wall of lead and fire to drop a torpedo. It's basically suicide and these boys still did it. I guess it was easy for them when Pearl harbor was only 7 months back.
The only MoH awarded for Midway(Captain Richard E. Fleming, USMC):
For extraordinary heroism and conspicuous intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty as Flight Officer, Marine Scout-Bombing Squadron TWO FORTY-ONE during action against enemy Japanese forces in the Battle of Midway on June 4 and 5, 1942. When his squadron Commander was shot down during the initial attack upon an enemy aircraft carrier, Captain Fleming led the remainder of the division with such fearless determination that he dived his own plane to the perilously low altitude of four hundred feet before releasing his bomb. Although his craft was riddled by 179 hits in the blistering hail of fire that burst upon him from Japanese fighter guns and antiaircraft batteries, he pulled out with only two minor wounds inflicted upon himself. On the night of June 4, when the Squadron Commander lost his way and became separated from the others, Captain Fleming brought his own plane in for a safe landing at its base despite hazardous weather conditions and total darkness. The following day, after less than four hours' sleep, he led the second division of his squadron in a coordinated glide-bombing and dive-bombing assault upon a Japanese battleship. Undeterred by a fateful approach glide, during which his ship was struck and set afire, he grimly pressed home his attack to an altitude of five hundred feet, released his bomb to score a near-miss on the stern of his target, then crashed to the sea in flames. His dauntless perseverance and unyielding devotion to duty were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.
At least 1 Japanese account conflicts with the USN/USMC official record in that he did not end up in the sea, but rather hit the rear turret of the heavy cruiser Mikuma and started fires. The rest of the citation is reasonably consistent with all the other evidence. (Mikuma was sunk on June 6th).
Posted on 6/4/24 at 12:43 pm to Ace Midnight
AF is short of fresh water.
Stupid Japs.
Stupid Japs.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 12:53 pm to Ace Midnight
Friend of mine was in a bookstore in Shreveport several years ago. He saw an older guy with a stack of books to sign and nobody was talking to him. He felt sorry for the guy and went and spoke to him. It was Ens. George Gay. They ended up talking for an hour and a half. He said it was one of the high points of his life.
ETA my sister used to work for a newspaper in Washington State. There was a Naval air station in town and a lot or retired Navy personnel lived there.. One of the Midway Avenger pilots lived in the town she got to interview him. She got to be pretty good friends with him and is wife. The article used to be online but unfortunately it's not any more.
ETA my sister used to work for a newspaper in Washington State. There was a Naval air station in town and a lot or retired Navy personnel lived there.. One of the Midway Avenger pilots lived in the town she got to interview him. She got to be pretty good friends with him and is wife. The article used to be online but unfortunately it's not any more.
This post was edited on 6/4/24 at 12:57 pm
Posted on 6/4/24 at 1:04 pm to Ace Midnight
Fine thread. Two things.
Halsey was laid up and Spruance, a cruiser man, took his place and won the day.
When Winston Churchill heard of the sacrifice of Torpedo 8, he wept.
Lt. Cmdr. Waldron, the leader of Torpedo Squadron 8.
Halsey was laid up and Spruance, a cruiser man, took his place and won the day.
When Winston Churchill heard of the sacrifice of Torpedo 8, he wept.
Lt. Cmdr. Waldron, the leader of Torpedo Squadron 8.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 1:20 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
It was Ens. George Gay
IIRC, he was the sole survivor from VT-8. When he died, he was cremated and had his ashes spread at the battle site with the rest of the squadron.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 1:25 pm to Ace Midnight
Dive bombers were a special kind of brave. Like, hit themselves in the nuts for fun at the age of 12 kind of brave.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 1:43 pm to Indefatigable
everyone thinks Gay was the only survivor but there was 1, maybe 2 others
Yep, 2 others LINK
Yep, 2 others LINK
quote:
After the war, Gay became a commercial airline pilot and enjoyed an unblemished 30-year career with Trans World Airlines. Occasionally, he was invited to speak at historical forums commemorating the victory at Midway. At one, the other two Torpedo Eight survivors, Bert Earnest and Harry Ferrier, were also invited to attend. They were standing at the back of the auditorium when Tex was introduced as the sole survivor of Torpedo Eight. Later, someone asked them why they were there, and Bert replied, “We’re the other sole survivors.”
This post was edited on 6/4/24 at 1:45 pm
Posted on 6/4/24 at 1:44 pm to OK Roughneck
No love for "In Harm's Way" ?
Posted on 6/4/24 at 2:00 pm to tigeraddict
quote:
The Solomon's area was the navy's operation zone (Halsey)
Actually, it was vice admiral Robert Grormley that was in command of the South Pacific area. Halsey had been relieved of command and sent back to the United States at the end of May because of a severe rash(I think it was a case of shingles) He was not allowed to return to the pacific theater September where he was given command of the Air Force Pacific Fleet. On his way out the Pacific Fleet Nimitz decided to relieve Grormley of command of the South Pacific area and gave command to Halsey. It was Fletcher who pulled the carrier task force from the Solomon area and Turner pulled the other ships because of lack of air support even though the Navy had not completed the off loading of the Marines and their supplies.
This post was edited on 6/4/24 at 2:03 pm
Posted on 6/4/24 at 2:01 pm to Ace Midnight
Shout out to the Cryptologists for breaking the code and giving Nimitz the Japanese game plan..
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