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Started By
Message
re: Jennifer Crumbly (school shooter mom) verdict in: Guilty of involuntary manslaughter
Posted on 2/7/24 at 2:49 pm to Snipe
Posted on 2/7/24 at 2:49 pm to Snipe
^^^^^ civilly? Absolutely.
Criminally? Only under extremely narrow circumstances (i.e., "Mom...I am taking your gun today to kill some classmates." "Okay...don't forget your coat.")
Criminally? Only under extremely narrow circumstances (i.e., "Mom...I am taking your gun today to kill some classmates." "Okay...don't forget your coat.")
1
Posted on 2/7/24 at 2:50 pm to Will Munny
quote:
Pretty much, the kid even asked for a mental health professional and the mom laughed him off supposedly. Morning of the shooting parents were called in because he wrote/drew some creepy violent stuff and they said sorry we can’t take him home for the day we have to go back to work. Didn’t mention he has access to a gun and didn’t check his bag.
ETA: still very surprising she’d be found criminally responsible for anything, even with as negligent as she was. Like somebody mentioned it’ll probably be overturned at some point.
I don't know. Look, common for someone to buy their kid a gun. I have a nephew who is 12 and already has 3 guns of his own. He loves deer hunting and he shoots disc. Gun safety has been drilled into him. This past hunting season was the first time his grandpa let him go on a hunt alone at the camp, but otherwise he can only use his guns under supervision.
If a parent knows their kid is unstable or ignores the kid who tells them he needs a mental health pro and yet still allows them to have access to a gun, they should absolutely be held responsible.
Posted on 2/7/24 at 3:39 pm to Alt26
quote:
But it appears the strongest argument for the state was the parents were notified of the disturbing drawing the DAY of the shooting and they knew he had access to the gun. They also appeared to know he may have had prior mental issues. Now, they (presumably) did not know he had the gun with him at school that day (if he actually had it with him at the time of the meeting). But the argument is knowing what they knew they could have, that day, prior to the shooting, taken efforts to ensure he did not have the gun with him or be able to access the gun. Yet, they did nothing whatsoever....which (apparently) in the mind of the jury reached the threshold of gross negligence.
This is where the issue lies more so than him simply having access to a gun.
The biggest part I think is they lied as to why they didn’t want to take him home that day or go get him assessed. The mom on the stand disclosed that she told the school she had to get back to work but that she actually would have been able to take off to take him to be assessed that day at a mental health facility. IMO that showed some pretty clear negligence on her part.
He almost certainly would’ve been admitted to a facility with what was presented at the school.
The other issue is that the school didn’t have any kind of policies to force them to get him assessed so the parents had full say on him returning to class. In the district I worked in, if a kid was found with those drawings with intent to harm he wouldn’t be able to return to school without a letter from a mental health provider clearing him to return.
This post was edited on 2/7/24 at 3:40 pm
Posted on 2/7/24 at 3:43 pm to udtiger
quote:Under Michigan law, the prosecution had to prove 1 of 2 things:
I actually looked at the elements of manslaughter under Michigan law and I don't see how this can survive on appeal, notwithstanding I could finding NOTHING under Michigan law (statute or jurisprudence) that allows the imposition of criminal penalties on a parent for the conduct of the minor child.
1. That Jennifer "caused death" due to her grossly negligent actions, or
2. That Jennifer breached her duty as a parent to "exercise reasonable care to control their minor child so as to prevent the minor child from intentionally harming others or prevent the minor child from conducting themselves in a way that creates an reasonable risk of bodily harm to others
Per the court case, he asked for help, and she laughed at him. He told her he was seeing demons, she also knew about the drawings of the dead people with blood. After all of that, she went out and purchase da gun for him and made it accessible to him, again, per the court case. On the morning of the shooting when she went to school or was contacted by the school, she didn't disclose any of this information to the school.
Posted on 2/7/24 at 3:55 pm to Supermoto Tiger
quote:
Statistically, how many mass shooters are black?
Posted on 2/7/24 at 3:57 pm to Will Munny
So where does this stop? Are we going to start charging gun shops, manufacturers, and bullet manufacturers as well?
Posted on 2/7/24 at 4:09 pm to grizzlylongcut
Man a lot of liberals here don't want to be responsible for their kids.
frick that. I'm a parent of 3. It's my job to make sure their upstanding citizens. Not TV, not the Internet, not the fricking government. And I don't get to cry and wipe my hands clean on my kids because I failed them as a parent.
I hope we see more of this. If parents don't want to be responsible arse adults and the government has to step up to make them, then we already live in a shitty world. Liberals always want to be the victim and never take responsibility for their own actions. It will always be the schools fault, or out of their control, or some other excuse so they can keep pretending they did everything they could.
Well guess what, some God loving parents will never see their kids grow up because these two (the mom and dad) couldn't be bothered to teach their boy how to be a man and have safe gun care and handling. I promise you there is at least 20 men responding to this thread that have taken the time and effort to teach their kids to respect life, guns, and God.
frick that. I'm a parent of 3. It's my job to make sure their upstanding citizens. Not TV, not the Internet, not the fricking government. And I don't get to cry and wipe my hands clean on my kids because I failed them as a parent.
I hope we see more of this. If parents don't want to be responsible arse adults and the government has to step up to make them, then we already live in a shitty world. Liberals always want to be the victim and never take responsibility for their own actions. It will always be the schools fault, or out of their control, or some other excuse so they can keep pretending they did everything they could.
Well guess what, some God loving parents will never see their kids grow up because these two (the mom and dad) couldn't be bothered to teach their boy how to be a man and have safe gun care and handling. I promise you there is at least 20 men responding to this thread that have taken the time and effort to teach their kids to respect life, guns, and God.
Posted on 2/7/24 at 4:13 pm to shel311
(no message)
This post was edited on 2/7/24 at 4:15 pm
Posted on 2/7/24 at 4:14 pm to shel311
quote:
Under Michigan law, the prosecution had to prove 1 of 2 things:
1. That Jennifer "caused death" due to her grossly negligent actions, or
2. That Jennifer breached her duty as a parent to "exercise reasonable care to control their minor child so as to prevent the minor child from intentionally harming others or prevent the minor child from conducting themselves in a way that creates an reasonable risk of bodily harm to others
Per the court case, he asked for help, and she laughed at him. He told her he was seeing demons, she also knew about the drawings of the dead people with blood. After all of that, she went out and purchase da gun for him and made it accessible to him, again, per the court case. On the morning of the shooting when she went to school or was contacted by the school, she didn't disclose any of this information to the school.
That is not the narrow construction and application of criminal statutes required for purposes of due process.
Posted on 2/7/24 at 4:27 pm to grizzlylongcut
quote:Are any of them responsible for a minor and responsible for safe keeping of the gun?
So where does this stop? Are we going to start charging gun shops, manufacturers, and bullet manufacturers as well?
Posted on 2/7/24 at 4:42 pm to udtiger
quote:
I actually looked at the elements of manslaughter under Michigan law and I don't see how this can survive on appeal,
The Court of Appeals of Michigan already ruled there was sufficient evidence of causation.
From their ruling:
“but for defendants’ decision to purchase their mentally disturbed son a handgun, their failure to properly secure the gun, and most importantly, their refusal to remove EC from school when he made overt threats to hurt other people,” the shooting would not have occurred.
Crumbley, 2023 Mich. App. LEXIS 2108, at 29-30
The Court emphasized that the “[d]efendants’ actions and inactions were inexorably intertwined with EC’s actions,” and a jury could reasonably conclude that EC’s actions were not only foreseeable, but that the Crumbleys’ own conduct or lack thereof increased the foreseeability of EC’s actions.
Crumbley, 2023 Mich. App. LEXIS 2108, at 35-36.
I will be surprised if it is overturned but we shall see.
Posted on 2/7/24 at 4:53 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
This is where the issue lies more so than him simply having access to a gun.
The biggest part I think is they lied as to why they didn’t want to take him home that day or go get him assessed. The mom on the stand disclosed that she told the school she had to get back to work but that she actually would have been able to take off to take him to be assessed that day at a mental health facility. IMO that showed some pretty clear negligence on her part.
People want to try to boil it down to the parents buying the gun or failing to secure the gun, but I agree with you - there’s a lot more than that.
There are the strings of text messages from the kid to the mother talking about hallucinating, seeing demons, clothes flying around the house, etc. where the mother eventually responds with something like “talk to your father.”
There are the journal entries where Ethan Crumbley talked about how his parents wouldn’t get him any help or bring him to see a therapist.
There’s the fact that the parents, knowing their child was disturbed, decided to buy him a handgun as a gift and then neglected to secure the gun or ammunition.
Finally, there’s the fact that the parents said they couldn’t take him home the day of the shooting when they were confronted with his drawings - despite being told that the school would call CPS if he didn’t receive treatment within 48 hours, knowing he was disturbed, knowing he wasn’t receiving any treatment, and knowing that he had access to a handgun.
It’s not just one specific thing that got her convicted, it’s the cumulative effect of all of these things.
Part of me does think that the state should have to choose between charging the kid as an adult or charging the parents, though.
Posted on 2/7/24 at 4:58 pm to lostinbr
It's a camel's nose.
Bad facts make bad law.
Of course, with this precedent, you're going to see the anti-gun zealots clashing with minority parents.
Bad facts make bad law.
Of course, with this precedent, you're going to see the anti-gun zealots clashing with minority parents.
Posted on 2/7/24 at 6:00 pm to Will Munny
They must be feeding her well in jail, or they got em one of them time machines in there. I swear when they locked this lady up she was my age and now that I'm 45, she somehow became 65 and she's been gettin' free rides on the gravy boat for 20 years.
Posted on 2/7/24 at 8:49 pm to Supermoto Tiger
quote:
Statistically, how many mass shooters are black? You can probably go back to the beginning of time and count on 1 hand the number of black mass shooters.
Statistically, you are 100% full of $hit.
LINK /
quote:
2023
Chicago holds the top spot for mass shooting incidents so far this year (published October 30, 2023 - "years not over"), with 32 separate cases where at least four people were shot – not including the suspect.
That's just one year. One city.
OK, no breakdown by race, but anyone familiar with Chicago knows that the vast majority of these shootings are in the 'under-served' neighborhoods, which are predominately black.
I can only count to 5 on one hand. Even if only one of the 32 shooters was black (not the case by far), in 6 years, we'd be over your number.
Please respond to these facts. Or show us your one hand with about 35,947 fingers.
Posted on 2/7/24 at 9:15 pm to shel311
quote:
That Jennifer breached her duty as a parent to "exercise reasonable care to control their minor child so as to prevent the minor child from intentionally harming others or prevent the minor child from conducting themselves in a way that creates an reasonable risk of bodily harm to others
Is there really a statute on the books that includes the phrase "control the minor child"?
Posted on 2/7/24 at 9:32 pm to IT_Dawg
quote:
she said she would do everything exactly the same.
Your basic point of no return.
Posted on 2/8/24 at 12:40 am to lostinbr
quote:Good point that I hadn't considered. It does seem illogical for the state to prosecute adults for failing to exercise appropriate judgement in care of a minor whilst simultaneously prosecuting that same minor as an adult presumably capable of exercising his own judgement independent of adults.
Part of me does think that the state should have to choose between charging the kid as an adult or charging the parents, though.
But mandatory sentencing and prosecution guidelines are typically the product of politics and emotion, not logic.
This post was edited on 2/8/24 at 12:42 am
Posted on 2/8/24 at 1:27 am to Scooby
quote:
So I buy my son a truck. He has a mental break one day and drives through a parade route and kills people. I’m now liable for negligent homicide?
More like you buying your son alcohol and then he kills someone’s while driving drunk.
Posted on 2/8/24 at 1:32 am to Volvagia
quote:
Funny how your post being proven empirically false just gets brushed off and you aimlessly move on as if it never happened.
You realize this is kind of his thing, right?
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