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re: Is what the US did in WWII the most impressive thing a country’s ever done?
Posted on 5/13/19 at 9:44 pm to Tortious
Posted on 5/13/19 at 9:44 pm to Tortious
quote:
Fire bombing killed more in Japan pound for pound than the nukes did.
Yep. More were killed in Tokyo than Hiroshima and Nagaski combined iirc.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 10:04 pm to VADawg
Wow, I had never read about that before. Thanks for the article. Interesting reading.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 10:23 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Winning our independence against the uk at the height of their empire changed the entire world.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 10:34 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
If Hitler had invaded a month earlier, I think he takes the Soviet Union
Possibly, although even before the harsh winter set in, the German supply lines were stretched to the breaking point. That extra month could have made a world of difference, though.
Another thing that Hitler did that, in retrospect, was probably a huge blunder, was delaying the attack on Moscow and diverting a large portion of Army Group Center (including the 2nd Panzer Group under Heinz Guderian) southwards to complete the encirclement of the Soviets in the Kiev pocket with Army Group South. Guderian was supposedly livid with anger that he was being diverted south. Capturing Moscow might have been the thing that caused a collapse in Soviet resistance, since it was an important rail hub and also a symbol of national pride. Stalin may not have survived the loss of Moscow. He may well have been overthrown in that event.
This post was edited on 5/13/19 at 11:23 pm
Posted on 5/13/19 at 10:41 pm to TigerStripes06
1. Russia. Lost 25 million.
Thank you winter for Stalingrad.
2. Brits. Got pounded and stayed civilized.
3. USA. Mighty and yes supported Russia and great Britain but did not suffer warfare on us soil after pearl.
I wonder if there had been intense interest USA could have developed nukes in 1935-1938 and saved the world from Hitler day1.
Fwiw USA also supplied China vs japan from India, in the 30's, a task my dad was part of. Japan controlled the entire Chinese sea coast.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 10:45 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Just read about Eastern European Front during WW2. I’m not hear to argue but pointing out to OP the answer to his question is no.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 10:55 pm to Sanfordhog
quote:what america did during ww2 is objectively more impressive than anything russia did
pointing out to OP the answer to his question is no.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 11:01 pm to WestCoastAg
Cripple the nazis by collapsing the eastern front. Look at when Russia entered WW2. Now look at when we did.
This post was edited on 5/13/19 at 11:05 pm
Posted on 5/13/19 at 11:07 pm to Sanfordhog
and? at that time there had never been a human civilization who reached our levels of industrial output combined with our supply chain management skills which allowed us to literally keep a, relatively, constant flow of supplies, goods, and economic assistance to literally every single corner of the world. that is beyond an all time achievement. you can argue we still win the war if russia capitulates. i have a hard time believing nazi germany loses the war if we arent single handidly keeping russia and england afloat
This post was edited on 5/13/19 at 11:09 pm
Posted on 5/13/19 at 11:15 pm to WestCoastAg
Not arguing with your understanding. I know I can’t change your thinking. Just hope other viewers of this post actually get a grasp about the war and understand the facts.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 11:17 pm to Tortious
quote:
Fire bombing killed more in Japan pound for pound than the nukes did.
True. Lemay's XXI Bomber Command virtually destroyed 66 or 67 Japanese cities with incendiary raids.
I am convinced however, that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were game changers in getting Japan to capitulate. The hardliners in the Japanese Army (which was ascendant in Japan's ruling circle) were complete fanatics who were prepared for Japan to fight to the bitter end. Their goal was to inflict such horrific casualties on the U.S. forces that it would enable the Japanese to achieve a negotiated settlement, instead of unconditional surrender. They called this plan, "Operation Ketsugo" ("Decisive"). And the planned invasion of Kyushu (Operation Olympic) by U.S. forces would have been a bloodbath (imho), as the Japanese were going to have in place about 600,000 troops in prepared defenses on the island, far more than the initial planners of Olympic had envisioned. The ratio of American attackers to Japanese defenders would have been about 1:1, far below the accepted ratio of 3:1 dictated by military doctrine at the time.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 11:23 pm to TigersFan64
quote:maybe, but its starting to look like the soviet unions invasion of machuria was what actually finally forced them to capitulate
that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were game changers in getting Japan to capitulate.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 11:35 pm to Amadeo
quote:
You'll have people on here shortly trying to convince you that the Soviet Union/Russia did most of the heavy fighting even though they got it handed to them 40 years earlier one on one against Japan.
The truth of the matter is without American help the USSR would have collapsed. Period. Take away the assistance given by the US, the Red Army would have no fuel for their tanks, no way to transport their army, and no way to feed their army. Take away American assistance and the Red Army would have been an immobilized mob of starving, diseased men dressed in rags and bare feet with their tanks and artillery both stuck in the rear area with empty fuel tanks.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 11:38 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
quote:that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were game changers in getting Japan to capitulate.
maybe, but its starting to look like the soviet unions invasion of machuria was what actually finally forced them to capitulate
Very possibly. That was definitely a big factor, if not THE factor. I can't argue that point. The tragedy is that the hardliners held political sway over the Emperor for as long as they did. There were pro-peace advocates in Japan, especially in the naval high command by 1945, but they had to be extremely cautious in vocalizing these feelings or risk being assassinated. The army high command hardliners dominated the ruling council, and kept rational realists who'd come to realize Japan was facing inevitable defeat cowed. Had they been able to convince the Emperor sooner to move toward peace, there was a window of opportunity before the atomic bombings and the invasion of Manchuria by the Soviets. Through the Magic diplomatic intercepts, the Americans were reading Japanese cables, but for every message that appeared to favor peace negotiations, there were many more that advocated a hardline, fight to the bitter end policy.
Posted on 5/13/19 at 11:41 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Stalin thought he was going to be executed by a coalition of Molotov, Beria etc. after Hitler invaded. To his surprise they came to him on hand and knee.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 3:26 am to Mr Personality
quote:
Stalin thought he was going to be executed by a coalition of Molotov, Beria etc. after Hitler invaded. To his surprise they came to him on hand and knee.
That’s because Eastern Europeans and Russians especially have it in their blood to be subjects to tyrants.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 3:34 am to Sanfordhog
quote:
Just read about Eastern European Front during WW2. I’m not hear to argue but pointing out to OP the answer to his question is no.
Tell me, how is it impressive that Stalin, a ruthless dictator, sent human wave after human wave assault on German positions? How is it impressive the absurdity of everything about the Red Army and the USSR at that time?
There’s an old story of a US officer discussing tactics with a Red Army officer and when the topic of minefields came up, the Red Army officer said “we simply advance as if they’re not even there.”
Real impressive by that military.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 3:42 am to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
Tell me, how is it impressive that Stalin, a ruthless dictator, sent human wave after human wave assault on German positions? How is it impressive the absurdity of everything about the Red Army and the USSR at that time?
I wouldn’t use the word, “impressive”.
You have to have an understanding of The Russian people. Not that they had much of a choice, as it was being shot by Germans or shot by your own troops if you retreated.
One can at least admire their tenacity and bravery in the face of near certain doom.
They just threw men at the Germans until they were overwhelmed. That takes a certain amount of chutzpah
Posted on 5/14/19 at 3:52 am to TigerStripes06
quote:
Winning our independence against the uk at the height of their empire changed the entire world.
It did change the world, but I wouldn't call late-18th century Great Britain the "height of their empire." The British reached their peak strength in the years leading up to World War I. The Great War effectively began their downfall as the world's most dominant power with World War II finally bringing about its fall.
By 1945, the United States and the Soviet Union had surpassed the British Empire in just about every category. The Royal Navy, going into World War II, was considered to be the finest on earth. At the end of the Second World War, the United States was inarguably the planet's dominant naval power.
I would argue that it wasn't until the Napoleonic Wars that Great Britain began to rise to their pre-World War I heights, however.
Posted on 5/14/19 at 4:11 am to RollTide1987
quote:
The Great War effectively began their downfall as the world's most dominant power with World War II finally bringing about its fall.
I’d argue that it brought about the fall of ALL the European powers and only really benfitted Russia and the US.
It ravaged Continental European hegemony, embroiled European powers in the Middle East, began the end of colonies (which is arguably the WORST thing that could have happened to former colonies, and began an era of globalism.
In Post WW2, Europe, America and other nations should have doubled down on colonization.
Imagine, instead of banana republics in S America and Warlords in Africa, you could have had Continents full of Rhodesias.
We pissed away the legacy of our forefathers for the siren song of Globalism.
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