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Inspired by the other thread, is the world better off with German victory in WW 1?
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:05 pm
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:05 pm
The scenario is Germany wins a quick victory taking France before the UK can cross the channel, Russia still plays out the game and after France falls the war just stalls out with little conflict afterward.
I think so because no Hitler and it is way less likely a Hitler like or fascist government rises to power or finds success in France.
The other point is the Ottoman Empire dissolves organically instead of having the Middle East divided up by Europeans. Giving much better-dividing lines of countries along the lines of ethnic groups. While still violent, the area is probably more stable.
Russia still falls to revolution and Stalin probably still comes to power. IDK if he and Germany would go to war. Japan still does their thing in the Pacific and they probably end up in a war with America over Oil tariffs.
Thoughts? Sorry I ended up writing a lot.
I think so because no Hitler and it is way less likely a Hitler like or fascist government rises to power or finds success in France.
The other point is the Ottoman Empire dissolves organically instead of having the Middle East divided up by Europeans. Giving much better-dividing lines of countries along the lines of ethnic groups. While still violent, the area is probably more stable.
Russia still falls to revolution and Stalin probably still comes to power. IDK if he and Germany would go to war. Japan still does their thing in the Pacific and they probably end up in a war with America over Oil tariffs.
Thoughts? Sorry I ended up writing a lot.
This post was edited on 7/17/18 at 12:07 pm
24
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:06 pm to Rayburn8
quote:
is the world better of with German victory in WW 1?
quote:Checks out
Mississippi State Fan
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:07 pm to Rayburn8
quote:
I think so because no Hitler and it is way less likely a Hitler like or fascist government rises to power or finds success in France.
If the Entente wouldn't have been so harsh in the aftermath, then WW2 might not have happened.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:09 pm to Rayburn8
In all honesty, yes. The only chance for a German victory was early on, probably no later than 1915. If the war had ended then there would have been some minor adjustments to borders in Europe, probably some swapping of colonial possessions. But what would have not happened would be the rise of Communism or Fascism that caused so much death and destruction throughout the world in the 20th century. Also, the Ottoman Empire would not have collapsed (at least not yet) and the Middle East would be far more stable.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:10 pm to Rayburn8
Yes. WWI Germany was based
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:10 pm to Rayburn8
quote:
The scenario is Germany wins a quick victory taking France before the UK can cross the channel, Russia still plays out the game and after France falls the war just stalls out with little conflict afterward.
I think so because no Hitler and it is way less likely a Hitler like or fascist government rises to power or finds success in France.
The other point is the Ottoman Empire dissolves organically instead of having the Middle East divided up by Europeans. Giving much better-dividing lines of countries along the lines of ethnic groups. While still violent, the area is probably more stable.
Russia still falls to revolution and Stalin probably still comes to power. IDK if he and Germany would go to war. Japan still does their thing in the Pacific and they probably end up in a war with America over Oil tariffs.
Thoughts? Sorry I ended up writing a lot.
France fell in WWII and how'd that work out? I doubt the war "fizzles" in Western Europe but I would be willing to bet the Germans would not have invaded Russia meaning the Allies would have a much tougher road to victory. It may have ended in a truce but I don't believe the largest empire in the world at that time (UK) would have stood idly by as Germany births an empire to a level to rival them.
This post was edited on 7/17/18 at 12:11 pm
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:10 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Also, the Ottoman Empire would not have collapsed (at least not yet) and the Middle East would be far more stable.
My understanding was it was well on its way to collapsing before the war, but it crumbling naturally is so much better than France and the UK screwing up the region for their own political gain.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:11 pm to Rayburn8
Not with a quick victory
The Wilson Administration made America rich off of war profiteering during WW1.
Before WW1, Britain was the richest country in the world, after WW1, the U.S. was because we supported them throughout the war when they needed food, munitions, and especially money
Before the war, London was the financial capital of the world, after, it was NYC
Same with France.
If that transfer of wealth to the US never happens it takes us much longer to become as powerful.
A weaker US is not better for the world in the long run
These are the best arguments for why a german victory is better in the long run, but only if the US has already made all of its money from Britain.
The Wilson Administration made America rich off of war profiteering during WW1.
Before WW1, Britain was the richest country in the world, after WW1, the U.S. was because we supported them throughout the war when they needed food, munitions, and especially money
Before the war, London was the financial capital of the world, after, it was NYC
Same with France.
If that transfer of wealth to the US never happens it takes us much longer to become as powerful.
A weaker US is not better for the world in the long run
quote:
I think so because no Hitler and it is way less likely a Hitler like or fascist government rises to power or finds success in France.
The other point is the Ottoman Empire dissolves organically instead of having the Middle East divided up by Europeans. Giving much better-dividing lines of countries along the lines of ethnic groups. While still violent, the area is probably more stable.
These are the best arguments for why a german victory is better in the long run, but only if the US has already made all of its money from Britain.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:11 pm to Rayburn8
WWII turned the US into the economic power it is today. I don’t know if I’d have an iPhone if not for all that mess so it might have been worth it.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:11 pm to soccerfüt
quote:
Checks out
Theres not a small segment of academia that agrees with him btw.
The only reason the middle east is a mess is because the Ottomans collapsed in WW1. Had that not happened the 2000s would have looked very different.
No 9/11, no Israel/Syria/SaudiArabia/Lebanon...
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:12 pm to Rayburn8
quote:
I think so because no Hitler and it is way less likely a Hitler like or fascist government rises to power or finds success in France.
But very likely a socialist revolution breaks out in France, as it nearly did after the Franco Prussian war. Then you have something akin to Bolshevism in control of a fully developed industrial state instead of backwards, agrarian Russia.
Some sort of Socialist uprising had been expected for a long time. The surprise was that it occurred in Russia and not the factories of Central or Western Europe.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:12 pm to Darth_Vader
What would france look like?
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:15 pm to Rayburn8
quote:
Russia still plays out the game and after France falls the war just stalls out with little conflict afterward.
quote:
Russia still falls to revolution and Stalin probably still comes to power.
I'm not sure about that. If Germany wins quickly in the west, there's no way Russia can get it's necessary war logistics together in time to be effective. There was always tension with the monarchy, but the prolonged conflict with the addition of Lenin arriving were probably the biggest factors.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:17 pm to Rayburn8
Almost no question it would be. Communism would not have risen in its current form at least. A quick victory also means no extreme sanctions over the loser. I don't think a French Hitler would have risen with a swift German victory. You don't stupidly cut up the Middle East, at least in the same manner as it did in our timeline, which led to the Middle East being the shite show we know it today.
Russia would still get a revolution, but it probably would have been postponed by a few years and I see no reason to assume Stalin would come to power. Lenin was smuggled back to Russia by the Germans in hopes (and succeeding) of getting the monkeys off their back from the East. Stalin coming to power was a frick up in and of itself, since that was the one guy Lenin didn't want in charge. Russia could have become the next United States or France instead of the Soviet Union.
This is the only thing I'm convinced remains constant. The cogs were already too far down the line. In this timeline, they still would have attacked Tsingtao, and I don't think regardless of victory Germany would have the capabilities of taking it back.
But I'll play devil's advocate and talk about some drawbacks:
1) The US does not become the world power it is today. Without the financing of the First World War, it does not become the economic center of the world, at least not for another decade. Europe needed to cannibalize itself.
2) Technology would be at least 30 years back. The two World Wars and the Cold War accelerated the growth of technology considerably, and this would not have happened if Germany won in the course of a few months.
3) France could be the birthplace for Communism instead, which could infect the rest of Europe.
quote:
Russia still falls to revolution and Stalin probably still comes to power.
Russia would still get a revolution, but it probably would have been postponed by a few years and I see no reason to assume Stalin would come to power. Lenin was smuggled back to Russia by the Germans in hopes (and succeeding) of getting the monkeys off their back from the East. Stalin coming to power was a frick up in and of itself, since that was the one guy Lenin didn't want in charge. Russia could have become the next United States or France instead of the Soviet Union.
quote:
Japan still does their thing in the Pacific and they probably end up in a war with America over Oil tariffs.
This is the only thing I'm convinced remains constant. The cogs were already too far down the line. In this timeline, they still would have attacked Tsingtao, and I don't think regardless of victory Germany would have the capabilities of taking it back.
But I'll play devil's advocate and talk about some drawbacks:
1) The US does not become the world power it is today. Without the financing of the First World War, it does not become the economic center of the world, at least not for another decade. Europe needed to cannibalize itself.
2) Technology would be at least 30 years back. The two World Wars and the Cold War accelerated the growth of technology considerably, and this would not have happened if Germany won in the course of a few months.
3) France could be the birthplace for Communism instead, which could infect the rest of Europe.
This post was edited on 7/17/18 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:17 pm to LSUJuice
quote:
What would france look like?
Now this is a good question. Keep in mind that France in the early 20th century was still somewhat shell shocked from its loss in the Franco-Prussian War just one generation prior to WWI. Had France been bested by Germany yet again in 1914-15, I’d say at the least the government of France would collapse.
Now, remember following the defeat of 1871, France saw riots and an almost outright revolution by the “Communards” in Paris. It stands to reason that, considering how popular Socialism had become in France just prior to WWI, that had France lost the war there’s a good chance there would have been a second communist uprising in France that this time possibly could have seized power. Thus, it is not out of the realm of possibility that France could have been the birthplace of Communism as a world power instead of Russia.
This post was edited on 7/17/18 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:17 pm to Rayburn8
quote:
The scenario is Germany wins a quick victory taking France
In this scenario Germany would be able to follow their original plan, so the bulk of their military would have been moved to the eastern front immediately after crushing France, and they would have put a much bigger hurt on Russia.
Do they send Lenin back to Russia in 1917, if they're beating hell out of them prior to that?
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:18 pm to Rayburn8
Superpower Germany would conflict with Russia
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:19 pm to TheHarahanian
quote:
Do they send Lenin back to Russia in 1917, if they're beating hell out of them prior to that?
I don’t think they do.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:19 pm to Tigeralum2008
quote:
I doubt the war "fizzles" in Western Europe but I would be willing to bet the Germans would not have invaded Russia meaning the Allies would have a much tougher road to victory. It may have ended in a truce but I don't believe the largest empire in the world at that time (UK) would have stood idly by as Germany births an empire to a level to rival them
Fortunately, Britain had a great way to combat that: their navy. Germany didn't have crap as far as colonies were concerned. Germany would have been the land power with Britain dominating the sea. I can't imagine it ending any worse than our current timeline, save for nuclear annihilation of course.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 12:19 pm to Rayburn8
England was a far different country in those days, I think it would have been conquered eventually because it wasn't going to give up its assets abroad that made it a global powerhouse. Meaning that Germany vs. the Brits would still happen. With no France to support I have a sincere feeling that they would have fallen and America wouldn't have gotten involved in a losing battle. so you would eliminate France and Britain from the world.
The ottoman is still a powder keg that would have uprisings almost weekly. I don't think oil would be stable in the region. I think Russia is far weaker with a German victory also.
but now you have an old school imeperialist empire that would wait about 10 years and take over more of the world. I think today you would have germany holding all of Europe besides maybe one or two pockets. I don't think the swiss would be seen as worth the risk so you would still have them as a country.
The real question is does an imperialistic america start to rise up with the success of the German victory and take over lands around it. Meaning do you have 2 world powers a superior Germany and the USA. I don't think WWI Germany would align itself with Japan, and I don't think Japan would want to be close to an imperialist Germany so no invasion of China.
would the balkins still be a powerkeg yes, but without the lend lease program does America ever recover from the great depression?
The ottoman is still a powder keg that would have uprisings almost weekly. I don't think oil would be stable in the region. I think Russia is far weaker with a German victory also.
but now you have an old school imeperialist empire that would wait about 10 years and take over more of the world. I think today you would have germany holding all of Europe besides maybe one or two pockets. I don't think the swiss would be seen as worth the risk so you would still have them as a country.
quote:
When the German Kaiser asked in 1912 what the quarter of a million Swiss militiamen would do if invaded by a half million German soldiers, a Swiss replied: shoot twice and go home
The real question is does an imperialistic america start to rise up with the success of the German victory and take over lands around it. Meaning do you have 2 world powers a superior Germany and the USA. I don't think WWI Germany would align itself with Japan, and I don't think Japan would want to be close to an imperialist Germany so no invasion of China.
would the balkins still be a powerkeg yes, but without the lend lease program does America ever recover from the great depression?
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