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re: Inspired by the other thread, is the world better off with German victory in WW 1?
Posted on 7/17/18 at 1:37 pm to Rayburn8
Posted on 7/17/18 at 1:37 pm to Rayburn8
It is really just masturbation. There is no way to know what would happen and any "alternate history" scenarios are just exercises in fiction writing. That said:
Germany would continue to rise, as would the US and Japan. The UK would still be prominent, but likely continue its gradual decline. Russia is a question mark. Civil unrest and potential for revolution, not necessarily inevitable. If "White Russians" came out on top instead of Bolsheviks, you might see a completely different outcome there.
The breakup of the Ottoman Empire may have resulted in similar outcomes per the creation of unnatural nation states. Only difference might be that Germany and/or Russia would have more say than France and Britain.
One major thing to consider: Germany was not a representative government with civil liberties. If it became the dominant force in the Western world, that factor would likely reverberate and eventually pit Germany and the US against each other as they expanded global influence. Maybe a different type of Cold War, waged decades earlier.
Even without Nazism, Germany was on track to create problems (and I say this as a general admirer of German culture and German people- excepting the 12 years of Hitler of course)
Germany would continue to rise, as would the US and Japan. The UK would still be prominent, but likely continue its gradual decline. Russia is a question mark. Civil unrest and potential for revolution, not necessarily inevitable. If "White Russians" came out on top instead of Bolsheviks, you might see a completely different outcome there.
The breakup of the Ottoman Empire may have resulted in similar outcomes per the creation of unnatural nation states. Only difference might be that Germany and/or Russia would have more say than France and Britain.
One major thing to consider: Germany was not a representative government with civil liberties. If it became the dominant force in the Western world, that factor would likely reverberate and eventually pit Germany and the US against each other as they expanded global influence. Maybe a different type of Cold War, waged decades earlier.
Even without Nazism, Germany was on track to create problems (and I say this as a general admirer of German culture and German people- excepting the 12 years of Hitler of course)
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Posted on 7/17/18 at 1:38 pm to Rayburn8
quote:
is the world better off with German victory in WW 1?
Well it couldn’t have gotten much worse than what actually happened, so I’ll say yes.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 1:44 pm to biglego
quote:
Well it couldn’t have gotten much worse than what actually happened, so I’ll say yes.
It can always be worse. In this case, much worse.
One of the outcomes of WWI was the dominance of Western powers that have representative government and some concept of civil liberties, even if all countries didn't have them codified like the US.
A worse case scenario would be authoritarian based nation states like Germany and Russia coming out as global hegemonic powers rather than the US, France, and the slightly less powerful but still influential UK.
Euro-Imperialism would still be a thing. Russia and Germany had chips on their shoulder about not having amassed overseas possessions like Britain and France. This would probably play out in a negative way for the developing world
The breakup of the Ottoman Empire was inevitable. There is no way to know if the results would be better or worse or if differences would only be negligible. Either way, religious and ethnic nationalism are likely with the breakup of any empire. The rise of Islamic extremism would have happened regardless. It may just be more projected at Germany/Russia than at US and NATO.
Same for the faltering Austro-Hungarian Empire. Eastern Europe and the Balkans were likely screwed no matter what. The ethnic tensions were there regardless of who won the war.
Powder Kegs tend to catch and blow if there are lots of lit matches around.
One of the results of WWI as it turned out was the building of a great alliance between the US and the UK. It wasn't yet solidified until WWII but that alliance has been one of the best things to happen to humankind in its history.
I'll take the real world results over the alternate fantasizing any day of the week.
This post was edited on 7/17/18 at 2:05 pm
Posted on 7/17/18 at 1:57 pm to CarrolltonTiger
quote:
Additionally, a German victory, and Japan doesn't pick up German assets in the Pacific and no reward from the League of Nations in China. Japan less likely to become as militant as it did.
Japan took a German colony less than a month into WWI. I really think that war between Japan, it’s neighbors, and the West was inevitable.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 2:01 pm to OMLandshark
quote:as would a subsequent war in europe between england and france trying to regain what was lost in ww1. just like what germany did for ww2
Japan took a German colony less than a month into WWI. I really think that war between Japan, it’s neighbors, and the West was inevitable.
barring a complete and total defeat of france and england where germany was literally occupying them, a second world war was happening no matter what
and if germany did completely defeat england and france to a point where a second war would be off the table, you would just have another cold war with america and germany instead of america and the soviets
either way, the 20th century has the same overall end game imo. we just get there in a different way
Posted on 7/17/18 at 2:09 pm to WestCoastAg
I think you’re jumping to some wild conclusions that have no basis. Unless Germany goes communist, I see no reason whatsoever we’d start a Cold War with them. There were no hostilities between Germany and America before the war and a significant portion of our population was German. The only way I see it is if they breache the Monroe Doctrine.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 2:26 pm to OMLandshark
quote:they were a militaristic dictatorship with no interest in the advancement of civil liberties. i believe we would have ultimately been viewed a threat by them when it comes to their status as the leading world power and quasi world domination and our relationship would have been doomed to be poor
. Unless Germany goes communist, I see no reason whatsoever we’d start a Cold War with them.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 2:32 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
they were a militaristic dictatorship with no interest in the advancement of civil liberties. i believe we would have ultimately been viewed a threat by them when it comes to their status as the leading world power and quasi world domination and our relationship would have been doomed to be poor
The Kaiser wasn’t that bad. Unless you can convince me that Wilhelm’s successor was ax crazy and would have died sooner than he did in our timeline, I really think you’re jumping through hoops.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 2:48 pm to OMLandshark
Before WWI the US and Germany on several occasions bumped heads. The US sided with Great Britain and France on several occasions.
There were issues over China, the Phillipines, Samoa, Venezuela and Morocco for instance.
It never came to all out war, but Germany and the US both fought for control in the Far East.
There were issues over China, the Phillipines, Samoa, Venezuela and Morocco for instance.
It never came to all out war, but Germany and the US both fought for control in the Far East.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 2:55 pm to Ash Williams
quote:
Before WW1, Britain was the richest country in the world,
That’s not true. The US already had the world’s largest economy by the late 1800s.
This post was edited on 7/17/18 at 2:57 pm
Posted on 7/17/18 at 3:29 pm to Rayburn8
Man we really need a History board. This has been interesting as shite to read about.
Posted on 7/17/18 at 3:34 pm to Rayburn8
Brits and Russians were constantly supporting civil wars of Christian countries to break away from Islam ottoman.
The Balkan peninsula was in uproar all the time.
See Greece.
Lord Byron.
The Balkan peninsula was in uproar all the time.
See Greece.
Lord Byron.
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