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Posted on 8/14/17 at 2:23 pm to troyt37
quote:
Exhaust fumes begin in the combustion chamber, exit the head into the exhaust manifold (with connections at each port
Yeah, both of these are under pressure, the leaking exhaust will drop the pressure thus the temperature significantly, so not an issue here
quote:
into the exhaust pipe (connection)
The above still likely applies for the same reasons
quote:
into the catalytic converter (connection) out of the catalytic converter (connection)
If there is any place I would worry about anything, it is here, and I am not worried about a gasoline leak.
quote:
into the muffler (connection) and out of the muffler (connection).
By this point, the exhaust gas is bellow the auto ignition point. And even then, we have to consider whether the air fuel ration is above the LEL% for there to actually be a fire.
Also, keep in mind that at idle, your engine is hardly working at all and the temps are as low as they'll be.As an example of what were talking about, here are some temperatures of various exhaust components.
Here are examples of what I mean:
at 60 mph on a level road (Degrees F.)
Catalytic Converter Inlet 757
Catalytic Converter Outlet 770
at 30 mph on a level road (Degrees F.)
Exhaust Manifold 250
Catalytic Converter 310
Gasoline Auto ignition Temperature 495
If this is really an issue, I'm also curious why driving up to the pump isn't dangerous or even starting your car after you fuel up?
Posted on 8/14/17 at 2:28 pm to anc
Much higher risk of Check Engine light going on.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 2:36 pm to troyt37
quote:
I saw a 16 year old kid nearly burn up in the pits of a drag strip when he drove over the top of fuel that had been spilled on front of him with open headers. I've seen lots of fires start this way. Certainly not the same scenario as a passenger car, but the potential is there.
quote:
open headers
quote:
not the same scenario
quote:
but the potential is there
Listen to yourself.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 2:43 pm to mdomingue
quote:
Yeah, both of these are under pressure, the leaking exhaust will drop the pressure thus the temperature significantly, so not an issue here
Except for the small fact that most of the time coming out of the head, the exhaust is still ON FIRE.
quote:
The above still likely applies for the same reasons
As does the on fire part, especially at anything above idle.
quote:
If this is really an issue, I'm also curious why driving up to the pump isn't dangerous or even starting your car after you fuel up?
Because there is a significant difference between residual gas that has leaked out and had a chance to dissipate, and freshly spilled gas as you pump it into the hot, running vehicle.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 2:47 pm to mdomingue
Now tell us what the open cup flash point for gasoline is?? I'll hang up and listen. I'll give you a clue it's well below 100* Fahrenheit. It's not the gasoline you have to worry about but the fumes. SMH
Posted on 8/14/17 at 2:52 pm to BHM
quote:
Listen to yourself.
You're the one not listening. The potential is there, whether you want to understand it or not.
I don't care if you guys pump your gas with the engine running, smoking a fatty, with a tiki torch in your other hand, after having pumped 5 gallons on the ground before finding the filler neck. I just hope you don't burn someone up on the other side of the island, who wasn't being a dumbass. Bunch of damn knuckleheads.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 3:21 pm to mdomingue
quote:
The ignition temperature of gasoline is 495° F
You have your terms mixed up. Ignition temp is the temp at which it will ignite spontaneously without an ignition source.
The Flash Point is the temp at which it will ignite with a source (such as static spark, cigarette, etc). For gasoline, that's -45 F.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 3:29 pm to Triton TR 196
quote:
Now tell us what the open cup flash point for gasoline is?? I'll hang up and listen. I'll give you a clue it's well below 100* Fahrenheit. It's not the gasoline you have to worry about but the fumes. SMH
Right, your point is?
BTW, it's below 0, -34 if I recall correctly correctly.
And the autoignition point is still the same. %LEL is 1.4%, which is relatively low but again requires vaporization of enough gasoline in a specific area.
You would think by now we would have had more major fires at gas stations that weren't static related.
To be clear, I'm not saying you should fill your vehicle with the car running, I'm just saying the risk from starting a fire because of static if you get back into then out of your car is probably significantly higher than refueling with the vehicle running.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 3:35 pm to troyt37
quote:
Bunch of damn knuckleheads.
Your delusions of superiority in this thread after the nonsense you've been posting is one of the more hilarious things I've seen on this site.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 3:40 pm to troyt37
quote:
It's not completely unrelated, and I didn't say it was completely unrelated, genius. Just because you don't have open headers, doesn't mean that fire, red hot carbon, and exhaust temperatures capable of igniting fumes aren't there, thus the posts about the connections, and therefore the possibility of leaks of those things. You're reading the words, but you aren't comprehending.
Three things we can be sure I know more about than you:
Thermodynamics
Exhaust temperatures
Spontaneous gasoline ignition
At a sufficient vapor saturation, gas will indeed ignite at 450 degrees.
However, that isn't possible under most circumstances at standard atmospheric pressure.
To further explain, in your world, cars would be shooting flames from their tailpipes because of the 2-3% vaporized unburned hydrocarbon blend blowing out of their exhausts.
Obviously this isn't happening. And, all things being equal, will not happen until the air fuel ratio sees a 100% increase or decrease in fuel. Ie: 6:1 or 20:1 average air fuel ratio.
This post was edited on 8/14/17 at 3:48 pm
Posted on 8/14/17 at 3:44 pm to troyt37
quote:
Except for the small fact that most of the time coming out of the head, the exhaust is still ON FIRE.
If yours is, take it to a mechanic right away. I'm pretty sure this is not how it's supposed to work. When that happens, you get backfires (technically after fire). Curious why you think this? Unless maybe you race and run a very rich fuel mixture.
quote:
As does the on fire part, especially at anything above idle.
Again, no.
quote:
Because there is a significant difference between residual gas that has leaked out and had a chance to dissipate, and freshly spilled gas as you pump it into the hot, running vehicle.
Is there? The gasoline will continue to evaporate at a fairly regular rate based on temperature and atmospheric pressure until it is all gone and what about freshly spilled gasoline when you restart your car?
Posted on 8/14/17 at 3:45 pm to anc
How do you know it wasn't an electric car?
Posted on 8/14/17 at 3:50 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
Your delusions of superiority in this thread after the nonsense you've been posting is one of the more hilarious things I've seen on this site.
Glad you were entertained, sorry you were beyond enlightenment. Do you, man.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 3:52 pm to anc
quote:
I have always been told this was extremely unsafe so this unnerved me a little. Am I wrong?
I was trained and worked for an insurance company. This is a total myth. Starting your car while pumping is dangerous, however.
Most folks in the north (MN, Dakotas, etc) leave their car on while pumping, for obvious reasons.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:04 pm to mdomingue
quote:
Curious why you think this?
Because I understand the internal combustion engine. My dad was a mechanic, and I've been working in and around cars most of my life. Have you ever seen an engine run without exhaust manifolds or headers on it? Pretty sure you haven't.
Even the best tune does not result in complete combustion, and when you consider that combustion, power, and exhaust are happening 2 or 3 times per second at 700 rpm(idle) for a 4 stroke engine, the answer becomes obvious.
Edit: Actually I guess it's about 5 or 6 times per second. 700 rpm, intake (stroke down) compression (up) combustion (down) exhaust (up). So, 700 divided by 2 (every other down stroke) divided by 60 seconds. Roughly 6 times per second.
This post was edited on 8/14/17 at 4:13 pm
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:19 pm to troyt37
I notice you're avoiding my post where I make it clear you don't have a damned clue what you're talking about.
That's nice.
That's nice.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:26 pm to X123F45
quote:
Three things we can be sure I know more about than you: Thermodynamics Exhaust temperatures Spontaneous gasoline ignition At a sufficient vapor saturation, gas will indeed ignite at 450 degrees. However, that isn't possible under most circumstances at standard atmospheric pressure. To further explain, in your world, cars would be shooting flames from their tailpipes because of the 2-3% vaporized unburned hydrocarbon blend blowing out of their exhausts. Obviously this isn't happening. And, all things being equal, will not happen until the air fuel ratio sees a 100% increase or decrease in fuel. Ie: 6:1 or 20:1 average air fuel ratio.
This one?
I'm sure you know more about those subjects, but apparently you don't know the difference between an engine, and it's exhaust system.
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:28 pm to anc
I never turn mine off
Posted on 8/14/17 at 4:35 pm to Goalman34
quote:I am assuming no open ignition source (open flame or spark) but ignition due to temperature, I meant to put auto ignition. If there is an open ignition source, running your engine while you fuel up is the least of your worries. The ignition going on within your engine is a closed system.
You have your terms mixed up. Ignition temp is the temp at which it will ignite spontaneously without an ignition source.
The Flash Point is the temp at which it will ignite with a source (such as static spark, cigarette, etc). For gasoline, that's -45 F.
quote:
The Flash Point is the temp at which it will ignite with a source (such as static spark, cigarette, etc). For gasoline, that's -45 F.
Pretty much been proven that a cigarette will not ignite gasoline (I still would smoke while fueling). Clearly lighting one will.
Static is the most likely danger when fueling a car.
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