re: How would you make this poker ruling?

It can be room dependent somewhat (ie, legacy rooms that still have a "betting line" and kills hands that cross it), but generally, for at least the past decade, poker hands are not "killed."

Amateur players LOVE to rant and rave about how a hand should be made "dead." In reality there are few such situations.

In this case player B called player A's raise. Player B is not allowed to fold. Even if player B's cards touched the muck, if they are still retrievable then they play. They are never dead until they are not retrievable.

Cards always speak in this situation, the action was complete/closed. Player B has no action (ie fold) to make.

Roberts rules of poker directly addresses this situation:

quote:

---

DEAD HANDS

1. Your hand is declared dead if:

(a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.



(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).



(c) In stud, when facing a bet, you pick your upcards off the table, turn your upcards facedown, or mix your upcards and downcards together.



(d) The hand does not contain the proper number of cards for that particular game (except at stud a hand missing the final card may be ruled live, and at lowball and draw high a hand with too few cards before the draw is live). [See Section 16 - “Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on the stud portion of this rule.]

(e) You act on a hand with a joker as a holecard in a game not using a joker. (A player who acts on a hand without looking at a card assumes the liability of finding an improper card, as given in Irregularities, rule #8.)

(f) You have the clock on you when facing a bet or raise and exceed the specified time limit.

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player.

3. Cards thrown into another player’s hand are dead, whether they are faceup or facedown.

---

And see rule 5

quote:

---

THE SHOWDOWN

1. A player must show all cards in the hand face-up on the table to win any part of the pot.

2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)

3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help us keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.

4. All losing hands will be killed by the dealer before a pot is awarded.

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

6. If you show cards to an active player during a deal, any player at the table has the right to see those exposed cards. Cards shown during or after a deal to a player not in the pot should be shown to all players when the deal is finished.

7. If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there is a side pot, players involved in the side pot should show their hands before anyone who is all-in for only the main pot.

---

quote:

---

the LSUSaint

---

Not sure how this should have played out, but EITHER way, you're acting like a condescending prick.

And since we're on a msg bd,

Need more information. Did the dealer “kill” the hand? Killing the hand is touching the cards into the mucked cards. If he killed the hand, it’s dead.

In a called hand any player at the table can ask to see the hand.

Player A gets the pot IF the hand was killed.

Player B needs to pay better attention

He’s right if the hand was killed

quote:

---

Doesn’t sound right Player B can’t even recognize his hand on a NL table. Was he drunk?

---

No but it happens more often than you think. I was sitting next to a man who misread a bad beat jackpot hand. Luckily I whispered to him about what he had before finding. He won 20k because of me. I got a player’s share of 1800 I think.

quote:

---

I've seen this on several occasions, guy calls a bet, shows cards, thinks he lost, dealer ends up calling his correct hand

---

Yeah, if a player turns his hands up, It is officially recognized and declared by the dealer and the other player must beat what was declared to win the pot.

I was a pit boss in poker room of a casino. This is the right answer or this is what we was always taught.

Player B gets the pot. Since his hand hadn't hit the muck, the cards speak.

Player A is a fricking moron for invoking a rule that is only in place to prevent collusion. He deserves for this to happen to him.

If you want a really crazy scenario here is something I saw once.

Two players bet big every street, both check the river. Player A says top pair and shows his hand. Player B frustrated starts to muck by throwing one of his cards in the muck. As he is about to throw his second card in the muck he stops and realizes the one card he is holding gives him a straight. There was four to the straight on the board.

The floor man looked like a deer in the headlights not knowing if he should push the pot to the guy holding only one card.

quote:

---

Two players bet big every street, both check the river. Player A says top pair and shows his hand. Player B frustrated starts to much by throwing one of his cards in the muck. As he is about to throw his second card in the muck he stops and realizes the one card he is holding gives him a straight. There was four to the straight on the board.

---

You must have both cards at showdown, one card doesn't play. The top pair hand wins.