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re: Do you find it hard to reason with staunch religious people?
Posted on 10/30/25 at 1:18 pm to RoosterCogburn585
Posted on 10/30/25 at 1:18 pm to RoosterCogburn585
If a person claims to know there is a god I handle them far differently than a person who isn't lying and says they believe there is a god. The first one is overselling their "faith" but are instead admitting they have none. That is some serious subterfuge that they may not readily recognize they are engaging in and that is a serious mental health problem. Believing in God, having faith, is a damned admirable quality that speaks volumes about the humility and self-awareness of the person in question. Replacing that with knowledge that no human on earth has ever possessed, although many have claimed to. also speaks volumes about the character of the person making that claim.
I have deeply religious friends and family members. Could not ask for better people. They don't use their faith as a badge of honor and a tool to ascend to some imagined higher place amongst others. It is about as human an idea as one can imagine...faith. Far more meaningful and important than knowledge, especially when knowledge does not and never will exist. I also have friends and family members who will tell you in no uncertain terms that they know without a doubt there is a god and they are going to spend an eternity in that god's company. They are as full of shite as a Christmas goose and for the most part their actions belie their "knowledge"...in fact their actions indicate they do not think there is a god at all because they do all manner of ill shite without a care in the world.
I have deeply religious friends and family members. Could not ask for better people. They don't use their faith as a badge of honor and a tool to ascend to some imagined higher place amongst others. It is about as human an idea as one can imagine...faith. Far more meaningful and important than knowledge, especially when knowledge does not and never will exist. I also have friends and family members who will tell you in no uncertain terms that they know without a doubt there is a god and they are going to spend an eternity in that god's company. They are as full of shite as a Christmas goose and for the most part their actions belie their "knowledge"...in fact their actions indicate they do not think there is a god at all because they do all manner of ill shite without a care in the world.
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Posted on 10/30/25 at 1:25 pm to N2cars
Posted on 10/30/25 at 1:27 pm to Globetrotter747
quote:
God would have to be extraordinarily manipulative for the Universe to be in the range of 10,000 years old.
Again, you are thinking of things in relation to our understanding of time, space and matter. God exists outside of those things. He also has the power, within the realm of the existence of those things, to break the laws of physics at any time and in any way He chooses.
Perhaps the "apparent" age of the universe is a test of faith...either you believe what He inspired Moses to write, or you believe in what mortal man is theorizing based on their infinitely limited perspective.
And if you don't believe He inspired Moses to record 6 literal days of Creation, then you deny the standard by which we can seek to know our Creator. It calls into question who God is, what that means, and whether we even matter in the big picture.
When you say something was in a different state "millions of years ago", how do you know that? Because someone looked at the characteristics of the current state (the only state they can possibly observe it in) and theorized about how it came to be. That's it. No eyewitness account. No writings from the society of the time, just a theory.
No matter what you believe, it is based on faith. You have to trust the information and explanation you are getting is true, because no matter how many theories science wraps around their conclusions, it's still a theory.
Posted on 10/30/25 at 1:33 pm to EvrybodysAllAmerican
quote:
Why? People who believe this would also believe in a world wide flood that would have aged the Earth in a very short time.
It wouldn’t have aged it. It would have destroyed it. It’s beyond absurd that all life on Earth today is the result of a recovery from a global flood some 5,000 years ago. Nevermind the interruption of ancient geological formations.
quote:
This is more reasonable than thinking highly ordered life evolved out of thin air from nothing over a million years.
Yet what we see in the fossil record is gradual complexity and changing of life over time.
The earliest fossils are the single-celled variety. “In the middle,” you have a lot of species that don’t exist anymore. And then you have contemporary species.
That sounds a lot more like evolution than the Genesis account of all species existing simultaneously and in recent millennia.
quote:
On a separate point... If you look at the listed ages of people in the Bible, lifespans quickly shortened from hundreds of years to around 80 after The Flood. My first inclination would be the pre-Flood atmosphere was filtering out massive amounts of harmful solar light/radiation ageing people at a much faster rate.
The first inclination of a rational person should be that tales of people living to be 500-1,000 years old is mythology from a primitive era.
quote:
A worldwide flood, especially if you consider the canopy theory, would change the Earth drastically and quickly. Then thousands of years later we look at the stark differences and think it had to have happened over millions of years.
Oh, it would be drastic. Like John Kennedy and Joe Theismann’s injuries were drastic. Drastic as in The End.
Putting disbelief in a 500-year-old man summoning pairs of all the world’s species to a remote region of the Middle East to board a giant wooden ship - caring for them, etc. - aside, life on Earth would not spring right back to its current diversity and distribution under those circumstances.
Posted on 10/30/25 at 1:33 pm to RoosterCogburn585
quote:
yet they question documented history
You do get that "documented history" has been manipulated by the approved historians of their time?
Do you think 5,000 years from now, the Civil War will be "documented history" with all the statues being torn down, and the blackwashing thats happened in just the past 10 years?
Posted on 10/30/25 at 1:48 pm to TigerGman
Matthew 19:24, the verse does not say that a rich man cannot get into heaven. If anyone flops when you falsely say that Jesus says that "A rich man cannot get into heaven" clearly hasn't read that verse. Just as you have not.
Posted on 10/30/25 at 1:56 pm to StansberryRules
quote:
Some people believe men can become women.
Spare me the lectures about which side is unreasonable.
While your point is funny it is at least somewhat mathematically challenged....how many people do you suppose think a biological man can become a biological woman? I would posit it is not a large number of idiots. It is entirely possible for either to dress and go about in public as the other though. But its the number of idiots who think biology can be changed with a costume or even a combination of costume, surgery and chemicals...they are indeed idiots. Fortunately they are few in number and do very little actual harm to anyone other than themselves and some number of people who are obsessed with them (that number seems to have grown exponentially since 2016). For the rest of us, normal people, they do almost no harm at all....but man those who are obsessed with them have conjured all manner of harm they are causing, which is to be expected from people who suffer from irrational fear.
Compared to the number of adults who think one part of Christian teachings is remotely possible....the account of Noah and the Ark...the number of people who think a biological man can become a biological female is infinitesimally small. That's just one of many things some Christians are convinced actually happened. If this is the measure of unreasonable Christians and people of all faiths are far more numerous than the number of idiots who think a biological man can become a biological woman. It isn't even close. And the former group has indeed done a substantial amount of harm to mankind. Currently there is one group of believers in particular, a substantial number of people, who would gladly wipe anyone who does not agree with their twisted world view off the face of the earth and they do indeed cause a pile of misery and death when they get a chance. If you want to say that fundamentalist Muslims are more reasonable than trans people find the instance of a group of trans people flying a plane into a building. I will wait and the wait is going to be a long one....
Posted on 10/30/25 at 2:24 pm to LSUballs
quote:
In your mind these people are everywhere. In reality, you've never met one.
I have. When I was a kid there was a snake handling church about 1/4 mile from the house. I never attended it but the people who did seemed more or less normal when they were in public. This was in Dawsonville Georgia in the early (1971ish) 70's.
I have had conversations with a bunch of sidewalk preachers. One of my uncles would take bad drunk and get to sidewalk preaching in the west end of Atlanta when I was a kid. Other than an ongoing 47 year long fist fight with his wife, my aunt, who gave about as good as she got in those bouts (I saw her hit him in the face with a 7.5 HP roto tiller once. She was a mean woman when her blood was up) he was a fantastic uncle. Taught me all manner of shite, some it was even age appropriate. While most of those people are noticeably insane....the eyes give it away....they ain't bad people in my experience, they're just mentally ill.
The one group I will say is militantly recruiting for their side are Mormons. They are fantastic people until they find out you ain't a Mormon, which will be within 10 minutes of your initial encounter and you don't lie when they ask you if you are a Mormon. After that they are extremely strange...like stepford wife strange. They will try non-stop to recruit you though but their demeanor is such that its a wonder they ever manage to do so.
I know 3 different families in Atlanta who had a falling out with their church...baptist church, different ones...and started their own church, different ones, in a store front. Just a handful of people all related to one another. All 3 of them have expanded beyond the origianl 7 or 8 family members. That is pretty goofy but it seems to work for them.
Posted on 10/30/25 at 2:30 pm to Globetrotter747
quote:
Well, why are there so many conflicting religions (and branches within those religions) if we can know all these truths?
Hell if you go to amazon right now and search for bible there are 200,000 different ones. Search for Holy Bible there are 20,000, 6,000 King James Bibles. Different ones. There are 317 versions of Gone With The Wind. 632 of Huckleberry Finn. The latter two are all different bindings and types of books....the first three all have vastly different descriptions but are suppoosedly identical LOL. No wonder there are so many conflicting religions, Christians can't even settle on a bible.....
Posted on 10/30/25 at 2:55 pm to BayouBreaux
quote:
Matthew 19:24, the verse does not say that a rich man cannot get into heaven. If anyone flops when you falsely say that Jesus says that "A rich man cannot get into heaven" clearly hasn't read that verse. Just as you have not.
quote:
gain I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
So you're telling us the literal wording is incorrect right? Please explain then how a Camel can go though the eye of a needle?
We'll be waiting for your flip flopping response...
Posted on 10/30/25 at 2:59 pm to TigerGman
quote:
Please explain then how a Camel can go though the eye of a needle?
Do you think that this is meant literally?
Posted on 10/30/25 at 3:41 pm to YouKnowImRight
quote:
Again, you are thinking of things in relation to our understanding of time, space and matter. God exists outside of those things. He also has the power, within the realm of the existence of those things, to break the laws of physics at any time and in any way He chooses.
Then you have no basis to criticize the statements of anyone who professes that a deity or some other supernatural force performed feats that violate the laws of physics.
We might as well sit around and make things up and quit wasting our time studying anything. If anyone can just bridge the gap of the impossible by invoking a deity, then science has no foundation.
We might as well quit studying hurricanes and their causes because someone thinks Zeus randomly hurls them at us when he gets angry.
quote:
Perhaps the "apparent" age of the universe is a test of faith
I would find that disturbing.
quote:
either you believe what He inspired Moses to write, or you believe in what mortal man is theorizing based on their infinitely limited perspective.
To date, there is not one single verifiable act committed by a deity or some other supernatural force. God-of-the-gaps thinking is illogical and those gaps have done nothing but shrink.
quote:
And if you don't believe He inspired Moses to record 6 literal days of Creation, then you deny the standard by which we can seek to know our Creator.
A lot of Christians don’t even believe in a literal six day creation.
quote:
When you say something was in a different state "millions of years ago", how do you know that? Because someone looked at the characteristics of the current state (the only state they can possibly observe it in) and theorized about how it came to be. That's it. No eyewitness account. No writings from the society of the time, just a theory.
There’s currently a 2.5 million light year distance between the Milky Way and the Andromeda. That we can see Andromeda means light stretches all the way across that enormous distance and is filled with images of Andromeda. That’s too much light for just 10,000 years of history.
So unless you believe God’s playing a projector with a bunch of fictional cosmic bullshite and almost nothing we see outside our nearest neighbors is authentic, the Universe is old.
To say God is “testing our faith” or “ignores the laws of physics as he pleases” without any evidence of that means that you cannot be reasoned with.
quote:
No matter what you believe, it is based on faith.
It’s based on reason and evidence.
Posted on 10/30/25 at 3:48 pm to RoosterCogburn585
Sometimes, yes. But I rarely ever get into arguments or conversations specifically about religion with christians anymore. I became so tired of it years ago. Their viewpoints, almost always based on geographic indoctrination, are too predictable, and it becomes nails on a chalkboard while a baby cries to me.
They're not curious people. Not too into reason. Overly certain about their stories. If step 1 of their info gathering process is to attempt to confirm their preheld bias, I'm out.
I like having a meta view of the world religions. If someone wants to talk about that in a fairly unbiased way, I may do that. But if it becomes the thing in which a christian spins narratives that put down the veracity of other religions while trying to find "reasons" that their stories are the cosmic and metaphysical truth, no, I'll pass.
They're not curious people. Not too into reason. Overly certain about their stories. If step 1 of their info gathering process is to attempt to confirm their preheld bias, I'm out.
I like having a meta view of the world religions. If someone wants to talk about that in a fairly unbiased way, I may do that. But if it becomes the thing in which a christian spins narratives that put down the veracity of other religions while trying to find "reasons" that their stories are the cosmic and metaphysical truth, no, I'll pass.
Posted on 10/30/25 at 3:52 pm to RoosterCogburn585
Religion is kinda the opposite of reason. It’s solely based upon Faith
Posted on 10/30/25 at 4:14 pm to RoosterCogburn585
quote:
Do you find it hard to reason with staunch religious people?
Yes. I got in to a big fight with a very very Baptist aunt of mine when I pointed out that over 1000 years passed in between the time that Methuselah was alive and the writing of the Old Testament and that it was likely that his age was exaggerated by centuries of passing the story down orally before it was written down. Also the ancient people used a different calendar than the one we use today. So he probably did not live 969 years as we know them today. I never said that anything about him not being a prophet or about God not existing or anything like that. Didn't matter she flipped the f**k out and told my mother I was an atheist.
Posted on 10/30/25 at 4:17 pm to RoosterCogburn585
quote:
It’s hard to reason with people like that.
Not as difficult as a diehard Democrat, less violent too.
Posted on 10/30/25 at 4:40 pm to TigerGman
Jesus is saying that a rich man puts his faith and hope in his wealth. The rich man that questioned him asked (paraphrased) What did he have to do? Jesus stated that he had to give up his earthly wealth. (paraphrased)The rich man was saddened because he had a lot of wealth. Jesus was proving a point in that wealth could be a spiritual hinderance. Its a hyperbolic metaphor that emphasizes the difficulty,but not the impossibility of salvation. Did you actually think he meant that a camel would go through the eye of a needle???? Is that flip-floppy enough ?
Posted on 10/30/25 at 4:57 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Do you think that this is meant literally?
LMAo. Exactly what I was saying. So in other words NOTHING in the Bible is to be taken at face value right? Nothing is to be taken literally right? gospel is to be taken literally, except when it gets too inconvenient, especially around the pocket book.
It's all open to subjective reasoning. In other words, the Ten Commandments only mean what I want them too. I can "bang my neighbors wife all day long, as long as I don't "covet" her, right?
Posted on 10/30/25 at 5:00 pm to Champagne
quote:Well, in most cases you'd be correct but Hugh is considered the "father of Mormon apologetics", and even wrote the church response to "No Man Knows My History" ("No Ma'am That's Not History"), so arguing religion was his thing. And regardless of how silly you might think his beliefs were, and I'd agree, he would have wiped the floor with me in a religious debate.
Exactly! Great point. Your Uncle Hugh is a great example. Why argue about Religion with your Uncle Hugh? What good could come from it? You'd only end up with ill-will towards each other.
But, yeah, for most family members nothing good can come from it.
Posted on 10/30/25 at 5:08 pm to TigerGman
quote:
LMAo. Exactly what I was saying. So in other words NOTHING in the Bible is to be taken at face value right?
Do you think in the bible it says, "and then Jesus said, 'hey baws watch me fit this camel through the eye of this needle.'?"
Are you able to decipher anaolgy, metaphor, simile, etc. from the literal in regular conversation?
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