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Started By
Message
re: Body cam footage of police interactions with Ahmaud Aubrey
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:20 pm to BluegrassBelle
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:20 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
So you said earlier in this thread that it's much more likely that McMichael didn't intend to kill Arbery. That they were just packing for the sake of packing and it was unlikely they intended to harm Arbery.
Yes
quote:
But then here you speak much more surely about McMichael being the one that could argue self-defense instead of Arbery. That Arbery was the one that "charged". They had been following him for several minutes, blocking him off, turning him around, etc. And we know the Dad in the bed of the truck was armed. Does that not give Arbery the right to self-defense when McMichael's moved towards the front of the truck with a firearm in hand?
Again, I think you're either assuming I'm saying stuff I'm not saying or getting me mixed up with someone else.
You've got my factual opinion correct - I think Arbery intentionally went after McMichael, whether he intended it as a self-defense move or an "I'm sick of this shite I can take this fricker" move - I don't know and it probably doesn't matter.
I seriously doubt the McMichaels have a valid self-defense argument because they initiated the conflict. I vaguely remember something about escalation and regaining the right to self-defense from 1L crim law, but I'm not under the impression that'll apply here.
Now, from a practical, on the street, non-legal perspective, sure, the younger McMichael may have been practicing "self-defense" because he thought his life was in danger if Arbery got the weapon away from him.
1
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:22 pm to Kujo
I see this thread went a bit differently than the Poliboard one...absolute clown show of a thread over there.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:22 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Now, from a practical, on the street, non-legal perspective, sure, the younger McMichael may have been practicing "self-defense" because he thought his life was in danger if Arbery got the weapon away from him.
Didn't the fatal shots come from his dad in the back of the truck?
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:23 pm to SUB
quote:
You have trouble reading? I didn't blame him at all. I even said it's easy to understand why he chose to go for the gun.
I know, I was agreeing with you
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:23 pm to The Spleen
quote:
Didn't the fatal shots come from his dad in the back of the truck?
Pretty sure it was the gut shot from the shotgun at the end that was the fatal shot
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:26 pm to Rep520
quote:
This is like saying it's a homeowner's fault for getting shot because he wouldn't have been gunned down if he didn't charge a guy burglarizing his home.
"The passengers on United 93 might still be alive today if they didn't assault the people piloting the plane. Yeah the Saudis who took control of the plane didn't do it legally, but who's to say what they were going to do? Ultimately the passengers took the controls and crashed it themselves. Play stupid games."
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:29 pm to Barstools
quote:If only you would trespass onto a construction site...
Barstools
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:30 pm to The Spleen
quote:
So why was McMichael out of the vehicle with a shotgun in his hand? Offering to give Arbery a ride, or directions to McDonald's?
Give me a fricking break dude. The fact that you're a Democrat and someone isn't wholesale swallowing your dumbass "lynching" narrative doesn't warrant this type of intentional obtuseness.
1) McMichaels are frustrated by their inability to get Arbery stopped.
2) McMichaels up the ante, and try to box in Arbery and get out with guns to try and get him to stop.
3) Arbery jogs straight at McMichael Jr., at which point the younger raises his shotgun, whether he's scared of Arbery at this point or he's trying to be menacing - I don't really care
4) Arbery, whether preplanned or in response, veers around the back of the truck (out of the line of fire for McMichael Jr.)
5) Arbery (IMO from the video) attempts to catch McMichael off guard by flanking him, a struggle ensues, and Arbery is killed
Other than the possibility that it was McMichael who made the first move in front of the truck, I have no idea where you'll go next because I'm really not seeing anything worthy of contentiousness here.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:30 pm to jchamil
quote:
Pretty sure it was the gut shot from the shotgun at the end that was the fatal shot
Ah, I thought I read the only shots that hit him were from the handgun. Dad told cops there were only 2 shots, I think both from his gun. Video definitely has 3 gunshots in the audio though.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:32 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Arbery jogs straight at McMichael Jr., at which point the younger raises his shotgun, whether he's scared of Arbery at this point or he's trying to be menacing - I don't really care
Or, Arbery was jogging around the passenger side of the truck when McMichael moved to the front of attempt to intercept him/interact with him. And when Arbery saw the gun, he attempted to get it away from him in self-defense (after being chased for multiple minutes).
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:33 pm to Rep520
quote:
This is like saying it's a homeowner's fault for getting shot because he wouldn't have been gunned down if he didn't charge a guy burglarizing his home.
Why is it so hard for some to realize that it is possible that the reason he shot him was because he went after Jr. At the same time, you can also acknowledge that it is not Arbery's fault that he was shot. Both can be true. Reason for doing something is not the same as assigning blame for the outcome.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:35 pm to The Spleen
quote:
Didn't the fatal shots come from his dad in the back of the truck?
If so that'd be news to me and might change a lot of my impressions.
But I don't think so. From the NYT:
quote:
Gregory McMichael “stated the unidentified male began to violently attack Travis and the two men then started fighting over the shotgun at which point Travis fired a shot and then a second later there was a second shot,” the report states.
But even if so, I think the same general thoughts apply. In circumstances where Arbery was the aggressor and the McMichaels had a valid self-defense right, Greg would have basis to shoot Arbery. But because I don't think self-defense is likely to apply, the "self-defense/defense of others" I'm referring to is in a real life non-legal sense.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:36 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
Or, Arbery was jogging around the passenger side of the truck when McMichael moved to the front of attempt to intercept him/interact with him. And when Arbery saw the gun, he attempted to get it away from him in self-defense (after being chased for multiple minutes).
Again, I think this is a possibility, I just think it's less likely than the alternative. But I don't think your version is required for Arbery to have been acting in self defense, anyway.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:43 pm to Rep520
quote:
There's a better point about a person's past being relevant when the entire event isn't videotaped
The only thing that's videotaped is the final confrontation, not the entire event or context. And the video is pretty shitty as it doesn't show the actual altercation immediately preceding the shooting or the shooting itself. Not to mention that I CLEARLY stated that the facts of the incident itself will be the fundamental deciding factor in the legal case, not the character narrative.
quote:
You don't have to use his past to infer what he did at the house under construction. There's video.
Nor did I say such. But it gives an example of his character and demeanor and why people might be suspicious of him in the area. Is it reasonable to be suspicious of a person like Arbery in your neighborhood? I would say these videos make it more reasonable than otherwise thought.
quote:
Also, there's no evidence the McMichaels knew about either of these prior incidents, so I don't see it could influence how suspicious they found Arbery.
You are clearly missing the point and I feel like I made my point rather clearly. I never implied whatsoever that anyone knew of these incidents or that they directly correlated with events. This is the problem with discussion on these cases, it turns into strawmen galore and derails the discussion.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:45 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Other than the possibility that it was McMichael who made the first move in front of the truck,
My point was it was the McMichael's making the first move by trailing him in their vehicle. It was the McMichael's that made the move to, as you said, box him in. It was the younger McMichael that exited the vehicle with a gun drawn.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:47 pm to Pettifogger
You're missing stuff.
You can see the driver's door open with McMichael close to it.
As this happens, you can see McMichael move away from the door to cut Arbery off, which Arbery avoids by turning to the passenger's side.
McMichael moves from away from the truck towards Arbery and winds up back in front of the truck facing Arbery with the shotgun.
First still with door open and McMichael at the door.
Second when McMichael steps away.
Third as McMichael is back at the front of the truck. He moves towards Arbery every time.
quote:
3) Arbery jogs straight at McMichael Jr., at which point the younger raises his shotgun, whether he's scared of Arbery at this point or he's trying to be menacing - I don't really care
You can see the driver's door open with McMichael close to it.
quote:
4) Arbery, whether preplanned or in response, veers around the back of the truck (out of the line of fire for McMichael Jr.)
As this happens, you can see McMichael move away from the door to cut Arbery off, which Arbery avoids by turning to the passenger's side.
quote:
5) Arbery (IMO from the video) attempts to catch McMichael off guard by flanking him, a struggle ensues, and Arbery is kille
McMichael moves from away from the truck towards Arbery and winds up back in front of the truck facing Arbery with the shotgun.
First still with door open and McMichael at the door.
Second when McMichael steps away.
Third as McMichael is back at the front of the truck. He moves towards Arbery every time.
This post was edited on 5/20/20 at 4:49 pm
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:48 pm to The Spleen
quote:
My point was it was the McMichael's making the first move by trailing him in their vehicle. It was the McMichael's that made the move to, as you said, box him in. It was the younger McMichael that exited the vehicle with a gun drawn.
Dude I get point and I share it
I've never wavered from that position. Maybe you felt like some people might mistake our conversation here and that required clarity, but I've put the blame for the incident on the McMichaels consistently and without any exception.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:50 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Again, I think this is a possibility, I just think it's less likely than the alternative.
Exactly. I don't understand how someone can "intercept" a person jogging forward by standing several yards to the left of that person. Yes, Jr did move closer to him, but he's still on his side of the truck. I could understand if he ran all the way to the opposite side of the truck and blocked Arbery's path, but that is not what happened. The only way that they run into each other is if Arbery makes a hard left around the truck, which is what happened.
And like you said:
quote:
But I don't think your version is required for Arbery to have been acting in self defense, anyway
Which is why I don't understand why some are so hung up on that point. It doesn't matter.
This post was edited on 5/20/20 at 4:52 pm
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:54 pm to Rep520
You'll have to explain the significance of what you think I'm missing?
The only thing I can tell we might disagree on is who made the most significant move at the front of the truck. I'm not sure it really matters, but from the course Arbery takes, the momentum of the two and the speed/agility advantage I attribute to Arbery, I think he is wrapping around the truck with the intention to confront McMichael and covers most of the distance between them.
Which I think could be important in a situation where the McMichaels had a self-defense privilege, but as far as I know they did not.
The only thing I can tell we might disagree on is who made the most significant move at the front of the truck. I'm not sure it really matters, but from the course Arbery takes, the momentum of the two and the speed/agility advantage I attribute to Arbery, I think he is wrapping around the truck with the intention to confront McMichael and covers most of the distance between them.
Which I think could be important in a situation where the McMichaels had a self-defense privilege, but as far as I know they did not.
Posted on 5/20/20 at 4:58 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
if only you would trespass onto a construction site...
I'm not a thug POS so I have karma on my side. Plus, I don't go places where I don't belong. It's not hard, if you're not looking for trouble.
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