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Posted on 5/26/22 at 6:24 am to USMCguy121
quote:
You have a clear pic of the cops ready to tase civilians who dare try to protect their kids while the guy is in the middle of his murder spree.
We really don't know why, but we do know they had nonlethal weapons pointed in the opposite direction of the shooter.
Id honestly write all that off to protocol - but then an offduty border patrol agent of all fricking people was the one that put the shooter down.
A few genuine follow up questions:
1) “in the middle of his murder spree” is a challenging phrase - how many people besides the shooter were killed during or after the video? If he had already barricaded/locked himself in and shooting had stopped - would that change the take?
2) what real difference does it make if the guy was on the schedule that day? That an off duty LEO was part of the team isn’t crazy. I’d imagine that often the swat, or other guys that are specially trained are not on duty at the time of incidents. If he was able to respond and had the skill set- put him in
3) while I get the desire towards action - why do so many think sending in untrained, emotional parents without any real coordinating or knowledge of what is happening inside, is the way to resolve this with the least blood?
Posted on 5/26/22 at 6:25 am to AmosMosesAndTwins
quote:
Heart wrenching imagining how those parents felt. But police have protocols for a reason. And just as important as those kids were, police are to someone else. quote: All those killed were in the same classroom, he said. I don’t know how you work that scene and live a normal life after that. Unimaginable.
The LEO training is “forget room clearing, forget securing the perimeter…go to where the shots are being fired immediately and engage”
I don’t know what the local LEOs we’re doing so I can’t say whether they were holding back. I can say the BORTAC team was 100 miles away when it started and hauled arse to get there.
the BORTAC team went straight in. Their team had guys in gym shorts and no tactical gear. The guy credited with the kill shot took a grazing wound to the head. He was wearing a mesh trucker hat. I’ve seen the picture of the hat. Took 8 staples to close the wound on the top of his head
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 6:28 am
Posted on 5/26/22 at 6:29 am to BilJ
quote:
The government is incompetent
People need to realize that what is happening to this country across the board isn’t incompetence. It’s being done on purpose.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 6:32 am to UndercoverBryologist
quote:
Standard operating procedure for many decades in a hostage situation was to wait out the situation and not to press the hostage taker into doing something crazy.
That being said, Columbine was supposed to have re-written the book on school hostage crises. (Klebold and Harris were all too happy to have as much time as possible to savor killing anyone they met. Ergo, “waiting them out” was playing into their hands.) I was under the impression that SWATs across the nation are trained to immediately breach and eliminate the threat.
A couple of years ago, we had a confirmed verbal active shooter threat against our building. After some research on the subject, it was determined to be a credible threat. In response (in addition to a bunch of extra security at our building), we did lots of active shooter drills/training during that time. Talking to the trainers, they told us that SOP now is once there are at least two people there the two go in together. When the next 2/3 show up, they go in together. This is/was in direct response to columbine.
FWIW, for folks in the building the procedure was Run, Hide, Fight. If you do decide to fight back, the most important thing you need to remember is 1). What type of improvised weapons you'll use? and 2). When will you employ your counter-ambush?
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 6:45 am
Posted on 5/26/22 at 6:34 am to TideHater
quote:
They followed protocol.
No they didn't. The protocol after Columbine is to "run to the gunfire."
Posted on 5/26/22 at 6:46 am to Lakeboy7
quote:
So we have to have a Border Patrol Agent, a guy that wrangles emaciated Hondurans and Mexicans all day, take the initiative and breech the door and kill this fricker? Not acceptable.
I'm not here to defend the police in this situation but that border patrol agent that took the guy down was part of a specially trained unit, effectively border patrol SWAT.
Doubtful Uvalde, a town of about 15,000, has a SWAT unit or even well trained police TBH.
For reference for you south louisiana boys:
That is about the size of Thibodaux.
Slight less than half the size of Houma.
Just a little more than half the size of New Iberia.
Double the size of Scott.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 6:49 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
I was kind of skeptical when I first heard this because I can only imagine how chaotic these scenes are, but there are videos from the parents confirming it. Really bad look, especially after conflicting reports from them and the Birder Patrol.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 6:53 am to The Spleen
quote:
I was kind of skeptical when I first heard this because I can only imagine how chaotic these scenes are, but there are videos from the parents confirming it. Really bad look, especially after conflicting reports from them and the Birder Patrol.
It is highly likely that he killed everyone in that classroom immediately upon going in. The shots in those videos are the ones he’s firing at cops out of the windows. It would be very improbable that he was killing people inside for 95 minutes, considering that all deceased came from the one room he was in.
Doesn’t make the parents feel any better, but it does explain the police reaction if they had reason to believe there were no survivors in that room
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:14 am to Indefatigable
quote:
Doesn’t make the parents feel any better, but it does explain the police reaction if they had reason to believe there were no survivors in that room
Roll in factors like an officer out of uniform running into a possibly armed parent in the halls
Setting the precedent of possibly letting in secondary shooters at future events
Unless you believe he is actively killing kids in the moment, there’s just not a race to get in the room yet alone let random citizens storm the building.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:17 am to Indefatigable
This. The people were all dead within short order and he was barricaded in. If there had been cops that saw him entering and they didn’t follow, that’s bullshite. But to arrive later after he was already in the room, I don’t believe they would’ve made a difference
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:21 am to Proximo
According to an interview with TX DPS, two officers exchanged gunfire with him in a school hallway as he entered, after he was confronted by the SRO. Both officers were shot and pulled back. He then entered the classroom and barricade himself in.
DPS did not confirm this yet, but my suspicion is that he killed everyone in the room immediately thereafter. If true and the cops knew where he was barricaded in, that could explain the police waiting on more firepower.
I expect we’ll get a timeline some time later today.
DPS did not confirm this yet, but my suspicion is that he killed everyone in the room immediately thereafter. If true and the cops knew where he was barricaded in, that could explain the police waiting on more firepower.
I expect we’ll get a timeline some time later today.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:23 am to NoSaint
quote:
Unless you believe he is actively killing kids in the moment
Armed school security officer and police engages suspect attempting to enter building, killer hits one or more officers.
So you have an active shooter entering a school, how do police officers know? He is ACTIVELY shooting at one of them.
So really the ONLY way this narrative works out is if the cop(s) were such bad shots this 18 year old with his gun for less than a week injured and incapacitated the cop(s) and additional forces in a small town failed to arrive on the scene for so long that the killer managed to find his way into a classroom and systematically kill 19 children and teachers before they made it and enough time had passed they assumed the shooter was done.
Since, as pointed out by multiple officers, and some in this thread, SOP is to run toward the gunfire in an active shooter situation, which this was, clearly
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 7:25 am
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:25 am to Indefatigable
Assaulting a barricaded subject is suicide. If he was in fact barricaded, the police assaulting COULD HAVE CAUSED the gunman to start killing hostages.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:25 am to NoSaint
quote:
Roll in factors like an officer out of uniform running into a possibly armed parent in the halls
Setting the precedent of possibly letting in secondary shooters at future events
Unless you believe he is actively killing kids in the moment, there’s just not a race to get in the room yet alone let random citizens storm the building.
That makes too much sense vs. believing cops just sat there with their thumbs up their asses while kids were being killed
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:25 am to Bronc
quote:
systematically kill 19 children and teachers.
How long do you think it takes to kill a room full of unarmed children? It’s seconds.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:26 am to Indefatigable
quote:
is that he killed everyone in the room immediately thereafter
There would be ZERO way for cops to know this unless they were on the scene.
Just assuming, ah well, he probably got all those kids anyways, lets just set up a perimeter, goes against active shooter protocol
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:27 am to Bronc
quote:
There would be ZERO way for cops to know this unless they were on the scene. Just assuming, ah well, he probably got all those kids anyways, lets just set up a perimeter, goes against active shooter protocol
They were on the scene. They exchanged gunfire with him in a hallway as he entered. Both officers were shot and pulled back, and he was able to barricade himself in the room at that point.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:27 am to Indefatigable
quote:
How long do you think it takes to kill a room full of unarmed children? It’s seconds.
I wonder if we’ll ever know the true timeline, but imaging how this played out inside that classroom in real time is haunting.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:28 am to Indefatigable
quote:
They were on the scene. They exchanged gunfire with him in a hallway as he entered. Both officers were shot and pulled back, and he was able to barricade himself in the room at that point.
So in your mind, in the middle of this fire fight, police officers were able to do a headcount of the specific classroom as presume that after they counted the number of shots there was no longer an active shooter situation?
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