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Message
re: An idea for those who feel "oppressed" by the laws of our country
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:03 pm to cas4t
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:03 pm to cas4t
quote:
You do realize I am the complete an utter exception, right? Or are you going to pretend to know me? I'm telling you I was very lucky.
But you proved that it was what brought you success. Why would you not demand that others follow suit? I just can't understand how you can be the product of such a good situation yet say it's impossible for others to do it.
You just championed a cause then said it won't work.
This post was edited on 3/27/17 at 3:04 pm
1
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:04 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
The folks on the left misconstrue their low expectation, soft racism, blame gaming, and lack of accountability as sympathy. They're hurting poor people and minorities for not expecting anything of them and subsidizing their poor life decisions.
Correct. As long as their being told that they are systematically oppressed and the only path to success is the establishment helping them along, they'll never succeed
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:06 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Correct. As long as their being told that they are systematically oppressed and the only path to success is the establishment helping them along, they'll never succeed
I just don't understand why some people feel they need to rely on something that constantly let's them down
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:08 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
I'm talking about the poor/AA community in general, not prison
I understand this. I'm saying it CAN start in prisons. Someone that has actually been rehabilitated in prison can return to their community and be better for it. Kinda like Cutty from the Wire.
quote:
That's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about the folks on the left that constantly blame every problem in a community on some sort of systemic, faceless, Illuminati plot to oppress people. You just said your success started at home.
It didn't start at home. I lived with a drug addicted mother and an alcoholic father. I lucked into a step mom that sent her other son, my step brother, to private school. This is an anomaly example. She didn't even grow up in my neighborhood. That's the point with the parenting thing. They had the same shite education. A lot of folks dig themselves out, but my point is that we COULD be doing more to help. Hell, it benefits everyone.
quote:
I'm talking about the folks on the left that constantly blame every problem in a community on some sort of systemic, faceless, Illuminati plot to oppress people.
So basically we all agree private prisons are fricked, drug laws need reform, we should have better education for inner city residents, but at the same time it's all bullshite oppression.
I don't think I follow. Do you disagree with any of the above?
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:11 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Correct. As long as their being told that they are systematically oppressed and the only path to success is the establishment helping them along, they'll never succeed
Man, yall really see the worst in people. It's kinda sad. I've seen hundreds of people do a lot with a little bit of help. People will always abuse it, I know that. But many won't.
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:14 pm to cas4t
quote:
It didn't start at home. I lived with a drug addicted mother and an alcoholic father. I lucked into a step mom that sent her other son, my step brother, to private school. This is an anomaly example. She didn't even grow up in my neighborhood. That's the point with the parenting thing. They had the same shite education. A lot of folks dig themselves out, but my point is that we COULD be doing more to help. Hell, it benefits everyone.
It started with family, not a government program. That's the edge you needed. I don't see why you're making this difficult. It's about parents getting their shite together and getting involved. The government can't be a proxy for that.
quote:
So basically we all agree private prisons are fricked, drug laws need reform, we should have better education for inner city residents, but at the same time it's all bullshite oppression.
All prisons, private or not, need reform. I think school systems need reform as well and that includes more accountability and more efficient use of funds. The way you put it, yes, it's bullshite oppression because most of those problems can be fixed within a family unit if the family unit wants to.
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:15 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
But you proved that it was what brought you success. Why would you not demand that others follow suit? I just can't understand how you can be the product of such a good situation yet say it's impossible for others to do it.
You just championed a cause then said it won't work.
You're not following. You or I can't demand anything. Of course it starts at home. Of course parents of minorities should do a better job. Some do and some don't. But I that is not something we can change. You actually think I'm advocating for someone to continue being a bad parent? Obviously I'm not. I'm just being realistic.
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:16 pm to cas4t
quote:
So basically we all agree
The problem is that you are saying XYZ is going to fix the problem while the other side is saying XYZ isn't going to do shite unless ABC is fixed. The fact is ABC and XYZ are dependent and independent of one another. ABC began the problem but XYZ accelerated it. You can't fix one and not the other because ABC will begin even without XYZ without a culture change, and XYZ will slow down ABC's effect until it's once again disregarded.
Is there a system that has accelerated the demise of lower income communities? Yes. Was there already issues that helped create an environment where the system could thrive? Yes.
This post was edited on 3/27/17 at 3:17 pm
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:18 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
It's about parents getting their shite together and getting involved.
I really don't know what else to say if you think this is the only answer. It's a huge piece, but it's far from the answer.
quote:
All prisons, private or not, need reform. I think school systems need reform as well and that includes more accountability and more efficient use of funds. The way you put it, yes, it's bullshite oppression because most of those problems can be fixed within a family unit if the family unit wants to.
none of the shite you listed or I listed can be fixed by a family unit. You and I agree that a family unit is important, of course.
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:18 pm to cas4t
quote:
You're not following. You or I can't demand anything. Of course it starts at home. Of course parents of minorities should do a better job. Some do and some don't. But I that is not something we can change. You actually think I'm advocating for someone to continue being a bad parent? Obviously I'm not. I'm just being realistic.
I'm telling you that is the absolute key to fixing the issue. Using the state as a proxy parent will perpetuate the plight of poor blacks. It's a guarantee.
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:20 pm to cas4t
quote:
I really don't know what else to say if you think this is the only answer. It's a huge piece, but it's far from the answer.
You're living proof that it's the answer.
quote:
none of the shite you listed or I listed can be fixed by a family unit. You and I agree that a family unit is important, of course.
How about ensuring your kids are raised right so they don't end up in prison?
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:21 pm to AwesomeSauce
well put, although I'm not even disagreeing with his XYZ. I'm calling bullshite on the family unit being the sole answer to the issues minorities face. I'm also calling bullshite on people who likely were born into very normal scenarios pretending they know what it's like to have to fight your way out of really terrible situations. He keeps referring to my family, and is missing the point that the break in the cycle for me was someone from the outside stepping into that circle and realizing something was wrong.
He also falsely assumed I never had help from the government.
He also falsely assumed I never had help from the government.
This post was edited on 3/27/17 at 3:26 pm
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:22 pm to public_enemy
quote:
Women feel oppressed and want equality.
African Americans feel oppressed, comparing modern times to slavery and the Jim Crow Era
Illegal Immigrants feel oppressed because we won't open our borders to them freely anymore
Muslims feel oppressed by western ideas
Up is down, left is right.
If you don't agree with me, you are racist as frick.
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:25 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
How about ensuring your kids are raised right so they don't end up in prison?
Obviously. But this doesn't change the other things listed, which play a direct role as well into why minority communities are the way they are.
And let's be clear; my step mom sent my step brother to private school before she met my dad. It took someone from outside the fricked up circle to show me I could do more with my life. That's not the same scenario we are discussing with parents and their children who grow up in the same streets for generations in a row.
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:28 pm to public_enemy
quote:
People even have the ability to leave if they choose to, a freedom granted by the ability to speak freely about displeasure. Why aren't they leaving if it's bad for them?
I've never understood this argument. While much of the "oppression" seems fabricated, this country can simultaneously be oppressive AND the best option for those who are oppressed.
Telling people if they don't like it they can leave doesn't really get you anywhere.
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:29 pm to cas4t
quote:
And let's be clear; my step mom sent my step brother to private school before she met my dad. It took someone from outside the fricked up circle to show me I could do more with my life. That's not the same scenario we are discussing with parents and their children who grow up in the same streets for generations in a row.
And it shows just how much any family member's involvement can make a difference. I just don't get how you can tell such a success story then have a defeatist attitude towards the same scenario.
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:33 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
And it shows just how much any family member's involvement can make a difference. I just don't get how you can tell such a success story then have a defeatist attitude towards the same scenario.
Because you aren't grasping the scenario. Not every minority in the inner cities is blessed with an educated step parent from a middle class background. That's not cyclical, that's breaking the cycle. I'm very lucky. Far from a defeatist.
Also, there are plenty of good parents in inner cities. Their kids still frick up all the time and end up selling drugs or joining a gang for a whole host of reasons I listed way earlier in this thread.
This post was edited on 3/27/17 at 3:34 pm
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:36 pm to cas4t
I hope you don't bring your no hope attitude to those you mentor.
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:37 pm to upgrayedd
alright, you got me
Posted on 3/27/17 at 3:37 pm to cas4t
You have to have both. Arguing which came first poverty or family decline is dumb. If you don't fix the schools but fix the family you won't change the community completely, you may double or triple the amount of people that get out, but you're not fixing an underlying issue. If you fix the family structure it's the same hurdle, snares and opportunity are still going to be an inhibitor.
You have to make education obtainable, fix the family structure, community expectations/ definition of success, and fix the criminal justice system to see overwhelming change. The left and right picking through and saying one will work without the other is so idiotic it's mind numbing. Fricken listen to one another and maybe a solution will be had. The only people who profit from the back and forth are politicians who promise one thing and blame the other side for their inability to make progress.
ETA: cas, don't see that as a direct shot at you, but rather a continuation of my post you replied to. I have a lot of respect for the collective heart and intelligence of the O-T and society as a whole. The inability for many to see the whole picture because they are focusing on particular details regardless the subject is infuriating to me because we have the capacity for so much more if we put our heads together instead of solely using our intellect to strike holes in the arguments of others.
You have to make education obtainable, fix the family structure, community expectations/ definition of success, and fix the criminal justice system to see overwhelming change. The left and right picking through and saying one will work without the other is so idiotic it's mind numbing. Fricken listen to one another and maybe a solution will be had. The only people who profit from the back and forth are politicians who promise one thing and blame the other side for their inability to make progress.
ETA: cas, don't see that as a direct shot at you, but rather a continuation of my post you replied to. I have a lot of respect for the collective heart and intelligence of the O-T and society as a whole. The inability for many to see the whole picture because they are focusing on particular details regardless the subject is infuriating to me because we have the capacity for so much more if we put our heads together instead of solely using our intellect to strike holes in the arguments of others.
This post was edited on 3/27/17 at 3:44 pm
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