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re: America needs carpenters and plumbers. Gen Z doesn't seem interested
Posted on 6/14/23 at 9:29 am to JackieTreehorn
Posted on 6/14/23 at 9:29 am to JackieTreehorn
quote:
They are too busy dancing on tik tok and doing challenges.
I read somewhere that 29% of the men 25-39 years old are staying home playing video games and not working.
1
Posted on 6/14/23 at 9:37 am to doublecutter
quote:
My son went to a few years of college, but just wasn't into it. He kicked around for a few years, working at a liquor store in a dead end job. He realized that he had to find something better. He got a job as an electrician helper with a large commercial non union contractor who has an in house program to become a journeyman. And at the moment is making about $1000 a week as a helper.
This is not directed directly toward you or your son but generally speaking the in-house apprenticeship programs are only recognized in house and mainly consist of doing things the way the in house management does things, all with a healthy indoctrination into how the in house company is the only one that exists that is worthy of consideration.
I was a green as a gourd first year apprentice electrician in 1984 in Atlanta. I was making $5 an hour and had some benefits like health insurance and a retirement account plus 2 defined pension benefit plans and was afforded the best, all around education for the trade available without any debate in the industry. That would be about $90K at 40 hours a week in 2023. In 12 months I was making $8 an hour. Wages have shrunk across the board since 1980 but they are far worse in the trades today than they were then...
Posted on 6/14/23 at 9:59 am to AwgustaDawg
quote:
This is not directed directly toward you or your son but generally speaking the in-house apprenticeship programs are only recognized in house and mainly consist of doing things the way the in house management does things, all with a healthy indoctrination into how the in house company is the only one that exists that is worthy of consideration.
The in house program they have is a path for them to become a journeyman, where the company pays their expenses and tracks their hours and progress. Their classes are at a school, not sure which one, that is independent of the company. The journeyman license he is getting is independent of the company. In fact, he was contacted by another company that said they would like him to apply for a job with them when he gets his journeyman license.
I fet what you are saying about the direction the trades are going, but you are shitting on the whole idea of someone going into the trades.
For my son, the last 4 years of learning and experience has opened up a path for him to have a decent job with a livable wage and benefits that he would never have with working in a liquor store or similar dead end jobs. I'm proud of the choice he made and encourage him to strive for more.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:03 am to kengel2
quote:
He could go into project management and estimating, he has the experience. LSU offers the courses online.
With 4 years experience he'd be lucky to be a foreman...and he most likely is not qualified to be a foreman as he is barely a JW. If he had 20 years experience and had a degree in project management and about 5-10 years of that experience was in estimating and project management he would be making about what a JW makes without any OT and with fewer benefits. IBEW apprenticeship program is 5 years today...it was 4.5 when I did it. It was the general consensus that you weren't a JW in anything other than name for at least 6 years and employment stats bare that out as most apprentices were handed a wiggy (votlage tester) and a tramp guide (a list of IBEW locals across the nation) upon graduation because their employer was not going to pay JW wages to an employee with 4.5 or 5 years experience when they could pay the same for one with 20 years experience.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:07 am to AwgustaDawg
quote:
. I know of 2 jobs within 30 minutes of where I am right now with over 1000 tradesmen, all union, employed as we speak. If you drive by the parking lot it looks like a salvage yard and if you watch them limp in and out of the gate of an evening it looks like something from the 1930s
All one has to do is go spend 30 minutes drinking coffee at the local supplyhouse to see the trades are brutal on the physical body.
I know several baws with small business trades. If you ask their sons if they are going to take over the family business you might get a smile and a no with shake of the head. The kids of tradies have seen how hard it is first hand.
To make good money that will support a family and self-finance the missing benefits, you will have to own a business with multiple employees. Then you are a business owner and not so much a tradesman. And if you're capable of running and managing employees then you probably have to skills to work a white collar job without the headache of a business.
And I still see people in this thread pretending 100k without benefits is basically the same as with 100k with benefits. Its not. Its wildly expensive to fund your own 401k, health, dental, pto.
There are good reasons why people avoid the trades and its not because its some super secret life hack no one has found out about. Also, I would never encourage a kid to enter a workforce that, in some significant degree, competes with 3-world labor that is pouring over the border. If compensation isn't enticing enough now, it sure won't be in 10 more years of unchecked immigration.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:11 am to doublecutter
quote:
The in house program they have is a path for them to become a journeyman, where the company pays their expenses and tracks their hours and progress. Their classes are at a school, not sure which one, that is independent of the company. The journeyman license he is getting is independent of the company. In fact, he was contacted by another company that said they would like him to apply for a job with them when he gets his journeyman license.
I fet what you are saying about the direction the trades are going, but you are shitting on the whole idea of someone going into the trades.
For my son, the last 4 years of learning and experience has opened up a path for him to have a decent job with a livable wage and benefits that he would never have with working in a liquor store or similar dead end jobs. I'm proud of the choice he made and encourage him to strive for more.
I am actually very active in recruiting for the IBEW in particular but also the UA and SMART (tin knockers). I encourage young people to go into the trades daily and at least 5-6 times a year sit a day or so in a job fair recruiting for the trades and do several career days at local high schools each year. What I do not do is sugar coat it...I relay my experience as an apprentice, JW, foreman, GF, Superintendent, project manager, estimator and owner. It is a good career path given the alternatives today....far better than when I went into it...but is it not what it needs to be to meet the demand and the industry has been aware since the early 70's and have done everything we could to reverse wage growth and make the trades an attractive alternative. For everyone like me who has managed to make a decent to really good living in and around the trades there are probably 1000 who barely provide for their families for any length of time. Given the abuse the body takes in the trades and the risks associated even today with safety like it is it is not for everyone and should never be entered into without as much knowledge as possible.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:14 am to doublecutter
quote:
For my son, the last 4 years of learning and experience has opened up a path for him to have a decent job with a livable wage and benefits that he would never have with working in a liquor store or similar dead end jobs. I'm proud of the choice he made and encourage him to strive for more.
As you should be and he should be equally proud. It is a good alternative for anyone armed with what to expect...far better than most alternatives today...but it is not utopic...we have issues in the industry which we could fix with out a lot of effort but across the board the decisions made over the last 50 or so years have made the trades less attractive than they were then....
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:17 am to High C
quote:
Unless you’re a REALLY strong math and/or science student interested in a STEM career, I would advise against traditional university altogether.
The biggest issue with this, and I agree with you by the way, is so many companies either a)require a bachelor’s degree or b)5+ years experience in the field to even be hired.
We regard college far too highly in this nation. Kids are simply not pushed into the trades because they’re looked at as less than by their parents, school administrators, counselors, etc.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:21 am to Turnblad85
quote:
All one has to do is go spend 30 minutes drinking coffee at the local supplyhouse to see the trades are brutal on the physical body.
I know several baws with small business trades. If you ask their sons if they are going to take over the family business you might get a smile and a no with shake of the head. The kids of tradies have seen how hard it is first hand.
To make good money that will support a family and self-finance the missing benefits, you will have to own a business with multiple employees. Then you are a business owner and not so much a tradesman. And if you're capable of running and managing employees then you probably have to skills to work a white collar job without the headache of a business.
And I still see people in this thread pretending 100k without benefits is basically the same as with 100k with benefits. Its not. Its wildly expensive to fund your own 401k, health, dental, pto.
There are good reasons why people avoid the trades and its not because its some super secret life hack no one has found out about. Also, I would never encourage a kid to enter a workforce that, in some significant degree, competes with 3-world labor that is pouring over the border. If compensation isn't enticing enough now, it sure won't be in 10 more years of unchecked immigration.
You are 100% correct.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:29 am to grizzlylongcut
quote:
We regard college far too highly in this nation. Kids are simply not pushed into the trades because they’re looked at as less than by their parents, school administrators, counselors, etc
Because most people in the trades don’t make shite and top out in terms of pay very early in their career..partly due to having to compete with illegal labor..
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:37 am to grizzlylongcut
I turned out (graduated) the IBEW apprenticeship program in 1989. I was earning a package deal with wages and benefits that totaled $21.60 an hour. At that time IBEW contractors had about 10% of the work in Atlanta...Atlanta was BOOMING.
Adjusted for inflation that would be $52.98 an hour.
I received an email Monday from my local about ongoing contract negotiations. The package under consideration totals about $42 an hour. That is a 20% decrease over 38 years...and the contract is not final, that is the best they can hope for. In that time we have lost all double time, we have lost all control over jurisdiction, we have allowed 80% of new hires to be hired by name instead of on a referral and we have taken in nearly 3000 new members as well as created a classification that never existed before to enable contractors to pay less for some employees...and they now control about 50% of the market in Atlanta (the 2006 recession was HARD on open shop contractors whose only business model was to work folks for 75% of what the competition paid). We have fared far better in Atlanta having never taken an across the board cut in pay...almost unheard of in those years in the trades...and losing less in benefits than most locals have. Our contractors are making far more today than they did in 1989 and all of the difference is based on reductions in wages directly and as a result of technology.
While I was an apprentice I was also earning an EE degree and eventually a MBA in project management. I have been involved in managing union building tradesmen for the last 25 years, in some fashion, or working alongside them. My base salary today is about 190% of what my wages would be, adjusted for inflation, in 1989. I make about 3 times what a JW in Atlanta makes working 40 hours a week...with an engineering degree and an advanced degree plus 40 years experience in the industry. I am not physically able to do the work of a JW today...I'm in good shape for a 58 year old engineer, I wouldn't last a shift on a pan slab in Atlanta. The trades are a good alternative but they ain't what they should be. It has been good for me....I am an exception to the rule and I know this for a fact based on experience and personal knowledge.
Adjusted for inflation that would be $52.98 an hour.
I received an email Monday from my local about ongoing contract negotiations. The package under consideration totals about $42 an hour. That is a 20% decrease over 38 years...and the contract is not final, that is the best they can hope for. In that time we have lost all double time, we have lost all control over jurisdiction, we have allowed 80% of new hires to be hired by name instead of on a referral and we have taken in nearly 3000 new members as well as created a classification that never existed before to enable contractors to pay less for some employees...and they now control about 50% of the market in Atlanta (the 2006 recession was HARD on open shop contractors whose only business model was to work folks for 75% of what the competition paid). We have fared far better in Atlanta having never taken an across the board cut in pay...almost unheard of in those years in the trades...and losing less in benefits than most locals have. Our contractors are making far more today than they did in 1989 and all of the difference is based on reductions in wages directly and as a result of technology.
While I was an apprentice I was also earning an EE degree and eventually a MBA in project management. I have been involved in managing union building tradesmen for the last 25 years, in some fashion, or working alongside them. My base salary today is about 190% of what my wages would be, adjusted for inflation, in 1989. I make about 3 times what a JW in Atlanta makes working 40 hours a week...with an engineering degree and an advanced degree plus 40 years experience in the industry. I am not physically able to do the work of a JW today...I'm in good shape for a 58 year old engineer, I wouldn't last a shift on a pan slab in Atlanta. The trades are a good alternative but they ain't what they should be. It has been good for me....I am an exception to the rule and I know this for a fact based on experience and personal knowledge.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:41 am to bikerack
quote:
I tell every high schooler I talk to that if they don't know what they want to do, consider going to trade school, become an apprentice and work your butt off...
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:43 am to AwgustaDawg
quote:
I encourage young people to go into the trades daily and at least 5-6 times a year sit a day or so in a job fair recruiting for the trades and do several career days at local high schools each year.quote:..
What I do not do is sugar coat it
I appreciate this. I probably overcompensate on pushing back on people who claim trades are the way to great success. Trades are better, imo, than most anything in retail or the food industry or other soulless dead end jobs of the like. Trades also make for some great character in men. But they are a hard way of life. The current in vogue thing of shouting from the rooftops to 18yo's that the trades are a hidden gem is painfully misleading.
It probably stems from homeowners who have someone like an hvac tech come out for 30min to replace a capacitor and get a $150 bill. They then somehow extrapolate that the tech is billing for at least 8hrs a day and must have a take-home pay of $1,200/day. (minus maybe some gas money of course
)Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:45 am to Bronson2017
quote:
Every single sub that built my house were in their 40's at the youngest aside from HVAC guys.
You'd be lucky to find one that isn't meth'd out while on the job. I don't understand what it is with that trade (HVAC) and straight up meth heads being 90% of the workers.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:47 am to RLDSC FAN
I’m learning to be a plumber. One less needed baws
Posted on 6/14/23 at 10:47 am to Dawgfanman
My son graduted college in 2021 and is making about $70k a year with about $15 k in student load debt....very low for his generation. He is rightfully proud of what he has accomplished and is on the grind doing what is needed to climb the ladder. I am proud of him myself...he has done everything exactly as he should have to date.
The problem is he is making less money than I made as a third year apprentice, adjusted for inflation. For young folks trying to do the right thing it is damned tough to justify the effort given the state of wages in the United States. Work is not worth as much as it was 50 years ago. By a BUNCH. Even with technology the trades are damned demanding physically...and the wages have fallen faster than most industries. That is why young folks aint going in them...they aren't idiots. If youre going to struggle financially your entire life you may as well do so with as much free time as possible, doing what you enjoy and can afford. Life is to damned short to take the horse from Animal Farm as your paradigm of hope...
The problem is he is making less money than I made as a third year apprentice, adjusted for inflation. For young folks trying to do the right thing it is damned tough to justify the effort given the state of wages in the United States. Work is not worth as much as it was 50 years ago. By a BUNCH. Even with technology the trades are damned demanding physically...and the wages have fallen faster than most industries. That is why young folks aint going in them...they aren't idiots. If youre going to struggle financially your entire life you may as well do so with as much free time as possible, doing what you enjoy and can afford. Life is to damned short to take the horse from Animal Farm as your paradigm of hope...
Posted on 6/14/23 at 11:06 am to RLDSC FAN
On one hand, I think simple economics will resolve any skilled trade shortages in the long run. As craft wages rise and “low skill” graduate wages continue to stagnate (with ever-increasing education costs), it will incentivize those on the bubble to consider learning a trade instead of getting a useless degree. It’s a problem that will ultimately resolve itself.
On the other hand, the shortage is real and the short-to-medium term pain will slow overall economic growth.
It is what it is, though. People have to make their own decisions. There are plenty of folks out there who would rather make $24/hr working a low level 9-5 desk job than make $35/hr working 50+ hours in shitty conditions. Stigma is part of it, sure, but it’s also the fact that people just prefer and easier lifestyle. Hard to really argue with that IMO.
On the other hand, the shortage is real and the short-to-medium term pain will slow overall economic growth.
It is what it is, though. People have to make their own decisions. There are plenty of folks out there who would rather make $24/hr working a low level 9-5 desk job than make $35/hr working 50+ hours in shitty conditions. Stigma is part of it, sure, but it’s also the fact that people just prefer and easier lifestyle. Hard to really argue with that IMO.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 11:08 am to lostinbr
The stigma is overstated in 2023. Might have been more of a factor 20 years ago.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 11:28 am to RLDSC FAN
In my son's HS class of 2018, only one of 220 graduates did not go to college. He became a plumber's apprentice. His dad told me that's just what he wanted to do, but it still must have taken some backbone to do be the only one choosing not to go to college. Bet he's making bank now.
Posted on 6/14/23 at 11:31 am to WWII Collector
quote:
I read somewhere that 29% of the men 25-39 years old are staying home playing video games and not working.
Because they have parents making life easier for their kid without work.
I would bet most have never worked anywhere for more than a month, and didn't share in household chores.
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