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re: 737 Max software is still trying to Maximum Overdrive the plane
Posted on 7/27/19 at 11:01 am to N2cars
Posted on 7/27/19 at 11:01 am to N2cars
quote:
they let these two (IMO) dissimilar airplanes be called the "same".
I really need to do some digging on this at work, but the cliffs on the MCAS issue is that the foreign carriers don't spend the money on buying the dual(redundant system,) the US carriers do, the dual system will auto shutoff in certain perceived erroneous data input situations, but in either case, the system can be manually overridden by the pilot, the older 737 had a similar system installed even before the flight control computers were a thing, Airbus has similar features and have had had near fatal consequences for similar reasons as the max, the current airbus procedures for undue activation of protection were discovered real time, real world, passengers in the back, by a Lufthansa pilot trying to save his life when undue activation occurred
Posted on 7/27/19 at 11:46 am to 777Tiger
This was the take fairly early on, but I think more has come out since then.
It is certainly telling that the only fatalities have come on foreign airlines, but I think domestic pilots are starting to question the max.
It is certainly telling that the only fatalities have come on foreign airlines, but I think domestic pilots are starting to question the max.
Posted on 7/27/19 at 12:12 pm to Jester
quote:
False. The software was created to try to override shitty hardware.
Particularly true. The software is there to compensate for the design flaws in the MAX. Basically the max is a larger 737 and thus needed larger engines. Larger engines wouldn’t fit under the wings so they pushed the engines in front of the wings (design flaw). The 737 airframe simply wasn’t designed to be as large and heavy as the MAX.
It would cost Boeing tons more money to make and get a new plane certified the size of the MAX. So they went the cheap route and just made the 737 larger (too large). This was all about saving money.
Posted on 7/27/19 at 12:22 pm to 777Tiger
quote:
I really need to do some digging on this at work, but the cliffs on the MCAS issue is that the foreign carriers don't spend the money on buying the dual(redundant system,) the US carriers do, the dual system will auto shutoff in certain perceived erroneous data input situations, but in either case, the system can be manually overridden by the pilot, the older 737 had a similar system installed even before the flight control computers were a thing, Airbus has similar features and have had had near fatal consequences for similar reasons as the max, the current airbus procedures for undue activation of protection were discovered real time, real world, passengers in the back, by a Lufthansa pilot trying to save his life when undue activation occurred
I also am of the opinion pilot training and ability was lacking for the two airlines who had crashes.
Posted on 7/27/19 at 12:27 pm to Thias2685
It's a software issue not a hardware issue
Posted on 7/27/19 at 12:49 pm to RedRifle
quote:
737 Max software is still trying to Maximum Overdrive the plane
This thing ain't flying this year or next year, and if it gets certified at some point, it will be under a different name.
Posted on 7/27/19 at 12:54 pm to Jester
quote:
False. The software was created to try to override shitty hardware.
...
You do realize that the way these systems work, hardware (in most cases) just does what software tells it to do right?
A shitty hardware design would likely fail any of the environmental or stress testing used to verify ability to meet requirements prior to certification.
I don't think people realize just how many "open" issues there are with software, even when it gets "certified".
Posted on 7/27/19 at 12:56 pm to athenslife101
I survived a 737 also, USS Kentucky
Posted on 7/27/19 at 12:58 pm to RedRifle
The bad pub alone these planes have received says they might want to scrap these planes for good. I don’t want to board one. That’s for sure.
Posted on 7/27/19 at 1:20 pm to 777Tiger
quote:
foreign carriers don't spend the money on buying the dual(redundant system,) the US carriers do, the dual system will auto shutoff in certain perceived erroneous data input situations, but in either case, the system can be manually overridden by the pilot,
MCAS was designed using only one AOA input. Here was the fatal flaw. There is no "option" for redundancy available. There was/is an option for "AOA disagree" MX message on display. I believe Southwest was the only one to accept the option.
You can't shutoff MCAS. You can't shutoff the FCC. The only thing you can shutoff is the electric stab trim. This is where the training for US pilots is superior. It should be instinct instead of relying on a checklist.
You are correct about the Airbus. There is a recent AD out for a software change to the ELAC computer. Very similar to the MCAS issue.
Posted on 7/27/19 at 1:27 pm to Mike da Tigah
We are going to need a domestic plane crash of one of these before they will finally scrap them and go back to the drawing board.
Posted on 7/27/19 at 1:35 pm to boXerrumble
quote:
This thing ain't flying this year or next year, and if it gets certified at some point, it will be under a different name.
If it's not certified within the next 6 months and Boeing suspends production, even Southwest or Ryan Air will start looking at the E2 or A320.
Even a temporary suspension of 737 production would be felt throughout the American economy. It's that popular of a plane.
This post was edited on 7/27/19 at 1:37 pm
Posted on 7/27/19 at 1:40 pm to goofball
Pilot or airplane geek question.
Was the Max software a reaction/“fix” for the European airliner (can’t recall company) that went down flying from South America? They flew into a storm and lost forward air speed and stalled but did not realize and I believe kept trying to climb?
Go easy on me. My post should reveal that I am a total novice. Actually novice is a strong word for me.
Was the Max software a reaction/“fix” for the European airliner (can’t recall company) that went down flying from South America? They flew into a storm and lost forward air speed and stalled but did not realize and I believe kept trying to climb?
Go easy on me. My post should reveal that I am a total novice. Actually novice is a strong word for me.
Posted on 7/27/19 at 1:41 pm to aileron
quote:
There was/is an option for "AOA disagree" MX message on display.
I think we have that, in that event I believe it defaults to Capt.'s AOA info, which is what I referred to as "redundancy
quote:
The only thing you can shutoff is the electric stab trim.
that's what I was referring to, stab trim cutout switches, although I'm a long time Boeing guy, that's the only Boeing in our inventory that I haven't flown, so I'm just speculating here like most everyone else is, I'm intend to ask some 737 guys about this next month, as I'll be working in training then
Posted on 7/27/19 at 1:46 pm to LSU alum wannabe
quote:
Was the Max software a reaction/“fix” for the European airliner (can’t recall company) that went down flying from South America
Air France 447, no, the problem was failure to recognize the condition that the aircraft was in, lack of indepth systems knowledge, and improper recovery procedure, all of that combined with a big "oh shite!" startle factor, at night, circadian flip, in thunderstorms, Captain in the back, etc.
Posted on 7/27/19 at 1:49 pm to RedRifle
if the plane is so poorly designed to be off balance to the point a computer must contort the controls to make it fly.
then a software update isnt the solution, you need to redesign the damn plane idiots
then a software update isnt the solution, you need to redesign the damn plane idiots
Posted on 7/27/19 at 1:53 pm to crazyLSUstudent
Initial software was much less aggressive and designed for the below:
The original version being less aggressive implementation was also deemed to only need one sensor (as accidental activation was limited and didn’t cause catastrophic issues). Later it was determined there was also a lack of smooth stick force in certain slower speed conditions, and the MCAS was expanded in scope, power, & included the removal of the G-force trigger (slower speeds & already decided one sensor was ok even though movement much more aggressive now).
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/the-inside-story-of-mcas-how-boeings-737-max-system-gained-power-and-lost-safeguards/
quote:
During flight tests to certify an airplane, pilots must safely fly an extreme maneuver, a banked spiral called a wind-up turn that brings the plane through a stall. While passengers would likely never experience the maneuver on a normal commercial flight, it could occur if pilots for some reason needed to execute a steep banking turn. Engineers determined that on the MAX, the force the pilots feel in the control column as they execute this maneuver would not smoothly and continuously increase. Pilots who pull back forcefully on the column — sometimes called the stick — might suddenly feel a slackening of resistance. An FAA rule requires that the plane handle with smoothly changing stick forces. The lack of smooth feel was caused by the jet’s tendency to pitch up, influenced by shock waves that form over the wing at high speeds and the extra lift surface provided by the pods around the MAX’s engines, which are bigger and farther forward on the wing than on previous 737s... As the pilot pulled on the control column, this uncommanded movement in the background would counter the jet’s tendency to pitch up and smooth out the feel of the column throughout the maneuver... This original version of MCAS, according to two people familiar with the details, was activated only if two distinct sensors indicated such an extreme maneuver: a high angle of attack and a high G-force.
The original version being less aggressive implementation was also deemed to only need one sensor (as accidental activation was limited and didn’t cause catastrophic issues). Later it was determined there was also a lack of smooth stick force in certain slower speed conditions, and the MCAS was expanded in scope, power, & included the removal of the G-force trigger (slower speeds & already decided one sensor was ok even though movement much more aggressive now).
quote:
About a third of the way through flight testing in 2016, as first reported by The Seattle Times in March, Boeing made substantial changes to MCAS. The flight-test pilots had found another problem: The same lack of smooth stick forces was also occurring in certain low-speed flight conditions. To cover that issue too, engineers decided to expand the scope and power of MCAS. Because at low speed a control surface must be deflected more to have the same effect, engineers increased the power of the system at low speed from 0.6 degrees of stabilizer nose-down deflection to 2.5 degrees each time it was activated. On the stabilizer, maximum nose down is about 4.7 degrees away from level flight. So with the new increased authority to move the stabilizer, just a couple of iterations of the system could push it to that maximum. Because there are no excessive G-forces at low speed, the engineers removed the G-force factor as a trigger. But that meant MCAS was now activated by a single angle-of-attack sensor... While the changes were dramatic, Boeing did not submit documentation of the revised system safety assessment to the FAA. An FAA spokesman said the safety agency did not require a new system safety analysis because it wasn’t deemed to be critical...
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/the-inside-story-of-mcas-how-boeings-737-max-system-gained-power-and-lost-safeguards/
This post was edited on 7/27/19 at 3:40 pm
Posted on 7/27/19 at 2:10 pm to RedRifle
I've been reading that it's heading towards Boeing completely scrapping the plane. I know they've had to pay reimbursements to airlines that have purchased them to the tune of almost 5 billion dollars already.
This really is a disaster for Boeing. They chose a cheaper, more short-term plan that they knew wasn't the best option over doing the right thing and building a completely new airframe. The 737 was never designed for long distances and they tried to put a square peg in a round hole by putting those massive new engines on it. Meanwhile, the A220 is getting rave reviews.
Eta: This video is a good reference point for why this whole thing transpired in the first place:
LINK
This really is a disaster for Boeing. They chose a cheaper, more short-term plan that they knew wasn't the best option over doing the right thing and building a completely new airframe. The 737 was never designed for long distances and they tried to put a square peg in a round hole by putting those massive new engines on it. Meanwhile, the A220 is getting rave reviews.
Eta: This video is a good reference point for why this whole thing transpired in the first place:
LINK
This post was edited on 7/27/19 at 4:38 pm
Posted on 7/27/19 at 2:54 pm to weaveballs1
Surprisingly the US has been so lenient on Boeing. If a tech company breathes they get blasted
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