re: 25th anniversary of waco

sorry, "backup" would have been the more appropriate term...no doubt, there was backup nearby.

My "buddy" doesn't lie - he obviously knew they were bad people and risked his own life being on the front line - so, perhaps you'll cut me a little bit of slack - I did ask the question in my first post to an obviously well-informed poster to please provide more facts, because I don't know them...and, I have never felt oomfortable asking this "buddy" in-depth questions as to "why this raid went bad".

Your words, not mine:

"They planned this giant arse raid without knowing who or what they were dealing with..... the end of the raid was payback."

So, I ask you - Do you think this neighbor/friend of my sister's was part of this big conspiracy to go in and kill innocent people without provocation? And, what do you mean by "payback"? Payback for killing and wounding the ATF officers who tried to deliver a search warrant? Or, payback for something else??

I'm all for rights to privacy and other civil liberties/human rights - and, maybe there was some real underhanded BS with the meth lab - if so, that obviously explains part of your contempt for them. But it's obvious that what was going on inside that compound was getting worse....not just child molestation, but the build-up of heavy arms and a growing sense of urgency for the Feds to prevent it from becoming worse was obviously what caused the decision to confront them.

Final point - if the ATF and FBI had known (with absolute certainty) that their 2 officers would have been attacked at the front door without provocation on their end, I doubt they would have put those officers at direct risk of being killed....they'd have pulled up (in their tanks) and delivered the warning over a megaphone. My opinion is that the ATF/FBI didn't know (just as you said), and thought that it could possibly be mitigated without injury to anyone....that didn't happen, but the Koresh group fired first, not the Feds.

quote:

---

Please tell me exactly what the ATF did wrong to mess this up.

---

Management. The bunch of lying self-serving career bureaucrats masquerading as law enforcement officers screwed the pooch at every turn. From dictating what type of weapons the agents were allowed to carry, moving the raid date up and going forward with the raid once the element of surprise was lost. We will never know if the original plan would have worked because the managers disregarded much of the plan on the fly. These same managers then went in front of Congress and lied about what took place.

As far as the ending of the siege, the FBI was in an almost impossible situation. Koresh lies to them over and over about surrendering and eventually cut off communications. The FBI was faced with the choice of doing nothing and having the siege go on for who knows how long (the Davidians were a doomsday cult and had literally tons of food and supplies) or forcing the situation. They elected to force the situation and the Davidians chose to kill themselves in lieu of surrendering.

quote:

---

you seem to know much more than others about the details of this sad event. Please tell me exactly what the ATF did wrong to mess this up. The reason I ask is my sister lived next door and remains close friends with one of the ATF agents who actually knocked on the door to present the warrant. His partner was shot at close range through the front door and killed instantly - he was wounded badly but was able to run several feet into the yard to hide behind a car while backup support was brought in to rescue him. He almost died after being hospitalized in serious condition for weeks. My assumption has always been that the follow-up "raid" by the ATF and full-blown "cannons" was due to an unsolicited attack on these two ATF officers - there was no other major support in the immediate area for several minutes. And yes, the "leak" is probably what caused the final battle to occur, but the major over-reaction was, according to the ATF friend, strictly on Koresh's part - not the ATF. When an officer is killed trying to deliver a search warrant, all bets are off. Not saying I like the idea of seeing multiple innocent children killed at all - and, maybe there was every opportunity for the FBI and other forces to still manage to force a surrender, but perhaps the FBI knew something we didn't know about what might have happened next without them taking some "offensive" actions.

---

So what you are saying is that there was a door knock presentation of the search warrant by a small group (3 or less) of agents prior to the raid with the cattle trailers. You are also telling me that the people inside the compound fired on this small group prior to the raid with the cattle trailers?

I believe if that happened we wouldn't be talking about this. If that happened there would have been 0 congressional investigations....there would have been no documentaries vilifying the ATF. I've never seen or heard of what you are saying.

According to my sister's neighbor, the ATF officer, there were two agents, not four, (him being one of them) who approached the front door. The door was shut, and the ATF agents were shot as they approached the front door.....no attack by any other officers on any Koresh followers beforehand.

It seems like simple logic that there is likely one of two possibilities - the agents approached the door with guns ablazing....which makes no sense due to the immediate danger to those officers as well as potentially children inside.....or, the Koresh clan shot first. I believe my sister's friend on this. Koresh shot first.

As to whether things were botched up front by "higher ups" due to a screwed up strategy, that's not too hard to believe - our government employees, including some of our finest, are continuously caught in situations like this...and lives are lost...due to big egos and impatience.

Thanks for the comments/info...sounds like there are several versions to this saga that may never be completely cleared up.

quote:

---

sounds like there are several versions to this saga that may never be completely cleared up.

---

This is truth.

Damn, only 9 made it out A tragedy all around.

I went to look at Baylor for school and we drove by there after it happened. Eerie AF knowing what occurred.

quote:

---

Not to mention they murdered 4 ATF agents.

---

They were all acquitted of murder in a court of law....in fact it was said they killed the agents in self defense.

ETA

I can't see how anyone can condone the United States of America to take military action against against its own citizens whose only crime that was ever proven was weapons violations.

I'd bet your buddy is lying pos gov bureaucrat that's going to tell that lie the Davidians shot first till the day that he dies.