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Started By
Message
Get ready for substantially more 2-4-5 and 3-3-5 alignments on Defense.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 8:52 am
Posted on 2/26/25 at 8:52 am
My attention was greatly raised around the time Staley was hired, when reports came out that the Saints were heavily considering unnamed College DCs to be DC under Moore, and after the hire of Staley were "Determined" to get a College defensive coach on staff.
They have now done that not once, but twice. With the hires of Joseph and Sirmon, you have hired two guys that have spent their entire careers in college on the defensive side of the ball, with heavy recruiting experience, and with Sirmon with 8 years as a defensive coordinator.
The game has evolved, and that evolution often comes from the college game.
The terms "3-4 and 4-3" have virtually no meaning anymore. Barely anyone lines up like that, and defenses are typically not determined by the front, but the backend now. Its all about the coverages, and the coverages will often dictate what is happening up front, not the other way around. All teams are "multiple" now, and run a variety of fronts. While the Saints spent a lot of time in 4-2-5, they did 3 man fronts, 4 man under, 4 Over, and all kinds of front looks as well.
College Defenses have had to evolve to combat the Spread. What many teams are doing now is variations of the 4-2-5 and 3-4... the 2-4-5 and the 3-3-5. They are different concepts, however.
And guess what two teams ran the 2-4-5 A LOT? Texas, where Joseph is coming from, and Cal, where Sirmon ran the Defense. Hmmmm. You have 2 Defense Tackles taking on double teams, then two "Linebackers" that really are Defensive End hybrids lined up on the line but standing up instead of hands in the dirt. And then two traditional Inside Linebackers. This allows for better defense against spread formations, running qbs, bunch formations etc. Here is one example:
Before you say "well its Cal and Texas defenses"...Georgia has run some of this too. Many teams are doing it now.
3-3-5 is similar but does require more athleticism at Linebacker.
Yes, Staley was a "3-4 guy" but he almost never 4 linebackers either.
Its gonna be multiple and we are going to see a lot more modern Defense.
They have now done that not once, but twice. With the hires of Joseph and Sirmon, you have hired two guys that have spent their entire careers in college on the defensive side of the ball, with heavy recruiting experience, and with Sirmon with 8 years as a defensive coordinator.
The game has evolved, and that evolution often comes from the college game.
The terms "3-4 and 4-3" have virtually no meaning anymore. Barely anyone lines up like that, and defenses are typically not determined by the front, but the backend now. Its all about the coverages, and the coverages will often dictate what is happening up front, not the other way around. All teams are "multiple" now, and run a variety of fronts. While the Saints spent a lot of time in 4-2-5, they did 3 man fronts, 4 man under, 4 Over, and all kinds of front looks as well.
College Defenses have had to evolve to combat the Spread. What many teams are doing now is variations of the 4-2-5 and 3-4... the 2-4-5 and the 3-3-5. They are different concepts, however.
And guess what two teams ran the 2-4-5 A LOT? Texas, where Joseph is coming from, and Cal, where Sirmon ran the Defense. Hmmmm. You have 2 Defense Tackles taking on double teams, then two "Linebackers" that really are Defensive End hybrids lined up on the line but standing up instead of hands in the dirt. And then two traditional Inside Linebackers. This allows for better defense against spread formations, running qbs, bunch formations etc. Here is one example:
Before you say "well its Cal and Texas defenses"...Georgia has run some of this too. Many teams are doing it now.
3-3-5 is similar but does require more athleticism at Linebacker.
Yes, Staley was a "3-4 guy" but he almost never 4 linebackers either.
Its gonna be multiple and we are going to see a lot more modern Defense.
7
Posted on 2/26/25 at 8:54 am to Fun Bunch
there was an article the other day talking about how Jaylan Ford can be a bigger piece to the defense. Maybe he has an opportunity find a role in this new defense.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 8:56 am to Chad504boy
If I remember from last years draft it was cited that his sideline to sideline coverage was a plus trait and shedding blockers something to work on. Was he hurt most of the year?
Posted on 2/26/25 at 9:00 am to Fun Bunch
Solid post Fun Bunch.
Been arguing with ppl about this since Staley became the front runner. It means absolutely nothing yet people seem to put so much stock into it. This isn't the 90s.
quote:
The terms "3-4 and 4-3" have virtually no meaning anymore. Barely anyone lines up like that, and defenses are typically not determined by the front, but the backend now.
Been arguing with ppl about this since Staley became the front runner. It means absolutely nothing yet people seem to put so much stock into it. This isn't the 90s.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 9:16 am to Fun Bunch
I'm interested to see what Saunders, Boyd and Ridgeway can do in the middle of this defense. Breese could still be a big piece in the middle but he also may have more value on the outside where he can get after the QB. I don't recall him having many reps as a stand up rusher in his career though.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 9:18 am to Fun Bunch
Good news is we have some decent young DBs who will help us continue to play more nickel
Bad news is we will need a lot of retooling in the front 7 (or 6) to play a more modern defensive style. We needed it anyway, since our DL sucks (for the most part)
Bad news is we will need a lot of retooling in the front 7 (or 6) to play a more modern defensive style. We needed it anyway, since our DL sucks (for the most part)
Posted on 2/26/25 at 9:18 am to Chadzilla
Yeah fans are stuck in the 90s because it’s concepts that are much easier to understand. The coverages are super complicated and I really don’t get a lot of them either.
To be noted, those lineups are obviously susceptible to power running games.
To be noted, those lineups are obviously susceptible to power running games.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 9:22 am to Rand AlThor
The fact will remain that we MUST get a NT type to man the Line. We will also need to get more DE/OLB hybrids.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 9:30 am to Fun Bunch
Great post, the base defense now is not really practical since gone to pass happy league. Its more about disguise coverage, contain running QB, and blitzes
Posted on 2/26/25 at 9:54 am to Fun Bunch
It'll be interesting to see what kind of run fits Staley likes to use.
I know that it's more of a passing League now, but we also saw the run game make a big difference, especially for some of the better teams in the league.
Even in the Saints really good start. Last year we were running the ball almost at will.
I know that it's more of a passing League now, but we also saw the run game make a big difference, especially for some of the better teams in the league.
Even in the Saints really good start. Last year we were running the ball almost at will.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 10:16 am to Fun Bunch
Good post.
It takes deep talent to be multiple. And while the rules and league favor the passing game and points, I still think stopping the run and being able to run controls a game. With these defenses, I could foresee a return to two running back sets with a Ironhead/Hilliard, Alstott/Ward type of backfield.
It takes deep talent to be multiple. And while the rules and league favor the passing game and points, I still think stopping the run and being able to run controls a game. With these defenses, I could foresee a return to two running back sets with a Ironhead/Hilliard, Alstott/Ward type of backfield.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 10:47 am to Suntiger
quote:
I still think stopping the run and being able to run controls a game.
You better hope Staley has learned a lot since his time with the Chargers
quote:
, I could foresee a return to two running back sets with a Ironhead/Hilliard, Alstott/Ward type of backfield.
The running game is already coming back, but it's not likely to be I-form with a FB. Just too restrictive when you can use a TE who offers the same benefits without the limitations of a FB.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:09 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
The running game is already coming back, but it's not likely to be I-form with a FB. Just too restrictive when you can use a TE who offers the same benefits without the limitations of a FB.
Yeah, I don’t think it will be a traditional FB. Maybe someone more like a Scattaboo or Carson Steele. A FB that can run and be a hammer while a smaller back can release into the flat or run wheel routes as well as run up the middle.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 12:20 pm to Suntiger
I know the good 235-245 rb is rare but damn sure would like one. A little blocking a little catching and to absolutely punish teams late in a game.
I miss it.
I miss it.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 5:36 pm to Chadzilla
Staley brought the 3-3 tite front to the rams from the college game.
This forces runs outside to your linebackers. Staley is also going to run 2 high safeties about half the snaps.
Saints are used to running 2 high but Staley uses the weak safety in the run game to make up for the light box.
This forces runs outside to your linebackers. Staley is also going to run 2 high safeties about half the snaps.
Saints are used to running 2 high but Staley uses the weak safety in the run game to make up for the light box.
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