re: You have to start Trey

quote:

---

Please elaborate, because it’s not like we rotate 5 for 5

---

ScoopAndScore explains the point succinctly in his post, but I'll give you my take. CJ cooks with the ball in his hands and has admirably deferred to support Zion and BI with more off-ball action and spot-ups. Make no mistake though he still is elite at creating and scoring the basketball, its just that his skill set is redundant when you want the ball in Zion or BI's hands.

With regard to CJ, moving him to a 6th. man role immediately creates a sizable mismatch going against the opponent's second unit and he'd be able to be the primary facilitator/scorer/stabilizer for that unit without having to defer to Zion or BI. You also mitigate scoring droughts with the second unit.

What your doing is replacing CJ's creation/3pt. gravity in the starting unit with TM3 who creates gravity in a different way (range). He's shown that he's money out to 30 feet. That skill is unique on this team, and really in the league... Steph/Dame type range. Also, he doesn't need the ball in his hand to create that gravity that pairs well with BI and Zion (who need more court time together instead of staggering them).

The sixth man in a starting unit often closes halves and games, particularly in the small-ball era, so you aren't demoting him. You could easily start TM3 that would benefit Zion and BI, have CJ cook with the second unit, and close with a lineup of CJ, BI, Herb, Trey, and Zion that would be a tough out for any team.

Herb, for all the flack he gets for his uneven offense is an elite perimeter defender in the league and does so much (noticed and noticed) to stabilize the team that you really can't replace him in the starting lineup against the opponent best wing (LeBron, Kawhi, Tatum, Murray etc..) Personally, I often just isolate and watch Herb on defense and am amazed at what he's able to do.

The key, in my opinion, is to get buy-in from the players to alter their game in terms of what they are not comfortable with (Zion scoring/facilitating from the low/high post, BI taking more threes/spotting-up, and CJ leading the charge of the second unit (and still closing). Those are your leaders and if they buy-in everyone else will fall in-line.

Again, this is the coach's job to convince and get the buy-in from your stars. Evaluation time is over, Griff/Trajen/Coach Green know it and need to show their organizational acumen on implementing it.

quote:

---

Just as the team needs to grow, Willie needs to grow past the defensive bias at least a little bit. This is an offensive league, and we really need to get past the “defend the lead” mentality.

---

He's not employing a "defend the lead" strategy when the starting 5 is closing. The starting 5 closing is why we've lost so many big leads. They can' t defend.

You have 4 highly competent offensive guys individually, but they do not mess together as a unit.

Zion, BI, CJ, and Jonas are all liabilities defensively.

That's why we've started out so many games slow and we give up big leads at the end.

The game against Memphis was lost because we couldn't get a stop in the last 4 mins with the starters out there. Ja put Cj & Zion/Jonas in pick and rolls over and over again.

quote:

---

Trey is not replicating BI’s scoring ability.

---

20ppg on elite level scoringefficiency is more desirable than 23-24ppg on average scoring efficiency IMO.

quote:

---

20ppg on elite level scoringefficiency is more desirable than 23-24ppg on average scoring efficiency IMO.

---

THis and add can make shots from literal Mars.


If we had a coach that wasnt dumb and played a unit of

Zion
Trey
Herb
Hawk
CJ

It would prob have the absloute highest net rating grouping

quote:

---

And Zion is only doing one thing with the ball, driving to the goal, and if that is cut off, then he’s close to worthless out there.

---

No one person in the NBA can successfully guard Zion 1 on 1 consistently.

Meaning, if Zion is cut off as you suggested, it's because a wall has been built.

If a wall is built then at least 1 or sometimes more offensive players have to be open if you have proper spacing


The reason why he's "worthless" when that wall is built is because we have a coach who refuses to surround him with shooters. Surround Zion with 2-3 elite level shooters at all times, and he'll magically become not so worthless when that wall forms becuase dudes like CJ and Trey will be taking 8 wide open 3s every game.


Instead, we have a coach who says he prioritizes shooting and constantly harps on 40 3s per game while also going out of his way to stagger the minutes of Trey and Zion and typically has only 1 shooter on the court with Zion at a time, so the wall is just built and leaves non shooters open, hence, being worthless when Zion gets cut off.

quote:

---

So you think you can win a championship with just role players?
Trey is an elite role player.

---

Trey Murphy is absolutely not just a role player, not even close.

He's a 20ppg dude on 60%+ TS%. That ain't a role player, that's an All Star waiting to his coach to allow him to showcase what he can do.


Willie uses him as a role player.

Willie uses him incorrectly.

quote:

---

Anyone that thinks he can replace what BI does doesn’t know how playoff basketball works.

---

No one said he has to do what BI does. Trey can do what Trey does. And he does that with elite efficiency, which is better than average to below average efficiency.

quote:

---

Off the bench you bring in Herb and Dyson and Naji and completely shut down other team’s bench units

---

Those two cannot play on the court together for extended minutes. They just can't. They are too bad offensively and it's like they magnify each others problems when they're in the same lineup.

quote:

---

This is how I feel as well. The dude made the most inefficient shot in the league, a long contested 2, his bread and butter. Frequently he’s a ball stopper and doesn’t really provide you that much in terms of playmaking and defense. Don’t get me wrong, when he’s really on it can be beautiful to watch, but his game will never translate to title contention IMO. Use him to put more players around Zion that won’t demand as much money and don’t need the ball in their hands all the time on offense. We’ve seen how successful that can be when Zion takes care of himself and gives a shite. Whether or not he will do those things is a different conversation but it’s a calculated risk you gotta take if you want the Pels to possibly win a title.

---

This is where im honestly confused as what the pels should do. I don't see a world where paying BI 50 million per year ends well. On the other hand if you trade him and further hitch your ride to zion that is another scary proposition. Zion hasnt improved his game at all in 5 years, is injury prone, and always fat. He also hasnt played like a guy you should build around this year.

quote:

---

Wow. No one can say he's just a role player after seeing the display of the on ball development this season.

---

From right now, going forward, if Trey maxed out as an elite role player, I would be disappointed.


Obviously, overall that would be fine getting a dude like that at the #17 pick.


But given where his game is right now, that would be quite the bummer since he's already an elite level role player. So basically that argument is saying he won't really get much better than he is now.


His main problem is opportunities. He has a coach who simply won't play him enough nor play him in the right lineups.

quote:

---

Forget all the Trey/Herb/CJ/Dyson talk. First thing Pels have to do is decide which (if either) of their "Batman & Robin" are still around 2 years from now. I've got a feelin' they have already decided...and we will learn where the Pels are headed by the end of this season. Of course, I guess there's still a chance one or the other might make a huge leap during this season...but I'm not very optimistic on that happening.

After we jettison one (or both) of our Zion/BI combo...THEN...we take stock of what we get in the trade and make an informed decision on how to proceed with our remaining Trey/Herb/CJ/Dyson group. I'm optimistic...and once again...when the smoke finally clears...I'd luv to somehow get Brandon Miller from the Hornets. Doubt they'd let BM go...but either of our "combo" would seem to have a bit of appeal up in the Charlotte area.

---

Yeah i think it's obvious at least 1 of BI and Zion have to be gone at the end of the year barring a turn around and a deep playoff run