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re: Willie Green “We will look to get the ball more in Zion’s hands at the start of games”
Posted on 1/22/24 at 3:46 pm to jmcwhrter
Posted on 1/22/24 at 3:46 pm to jmcwhrter
quote:
Well we put the ball in Zion's hands alot at the beginning of the last game, and he dribbled it off his foot into traffic half the time
What are you talking about? Nurkic poked it away once and it was a turnover. We also got two Zion layups and the assist to JV. We were down only 4 when Zion came out. We were down much more than that when he came back in.
Putting the ball in Zion's hands more has been the obvious change. Zion isn't a spacer but yet he spends a lot of time in the corner to start games. The only actions he is directly involved in with the starters are the dribble hand off from JV with him coming up from the corner or a post up in transition. Again, our best stretch of basketball in the last few years occurred with the offense revolving around Zion. Why are we so stubborn to go back to this????
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Posted on 1/22/24 at 3:48 pm to Balsamic_duck
quote:
Not only that but the amount of times they have Zion just standing in the corner while BI does his midrange thing is insane. Like at least have Zion set a screen or something otherwise he's a complete waste of space out on the perimeter.
What’s funny is against the Suns, he was in the corner and he said frick it- im making the three. I have a feeling hes getting tired of sitting in the corner anf watching BI.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 4:29 pm to shel311
quote:
You just hit on something that has been rather obvious all season but rarely discussed here.
There's a lot of talk about the team featuring BI as the #1, which they have, when he's clearly not a #1.
But I'm not sure if some haven't noticed, BI isn't our #2 either. CJ has been better than BI this season. I see a shite ton of talking up of BI's passing/facilitating, and we know CJ has moved off ball way more, and yet CJ is STILL averaging almost as many assists as BI.
I trust CJ more than BI as a #2, though I don't particularly think either can be a #2 on a title team, unless we had that version of Zion we thought we'd get and saw December 2022. And this CJ fits wayyyyy better with that Zion than BI does.
I've been the one having to defend BI a good bit lately, but i'm honest about saying he can't be our #1 guy.
I am without a doubt open to moving him for a legit PG.
If there's a ball dominant PG out there that can play good D and set up CJ and Trey and Zion and run a PnR with an athletic big like Jarrett Allen, I'd feel a lot more confident with that type of team going forward than the one currently.
problem is i have no idea who that PG is. I mean obviously Halliburton, but they aren't trading him.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 4:42 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
really wanted BI to be the #1. He's just not good enough to do that. At least not with a non shooting, non defending, non defensive rebounding, non center like Zion next to him.
I think that’s really valid. BI’s effectiveness as a facilitator is best when Zion is not out there. But BI being out there with Zion won’t lessen Zion’s ability as a facilitator. This makes much more sense letting Zion initiate the offense with the starting group. You can then transition to BI when Zion goes out at the 5 or 6 minute mark.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 4:43 pm to Soggymoss
Well it’s about fricking time.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 4:58 pm to LSUgrad88
quote:
I think that’s really valid
Not a bad idea to have Zion start the game off as the initiator if only to get him engaged earlier. The Pels are on pace for a 48-win or so season even with the number of blown games, so the narrative that the team is in the dredges is not accurate. Ideally, the move will additionally get him engaged on the boards, where the team needs him to step up.
This post was edited on 1/22/24 at 5:52 pm
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:41 am to Pistol44
Are we all in agreement that this is why the team is stressing BI to take more 3's (other than the obvious data reasons of a 3 being a better shot than a midrange 2)? They are having to get BI to buy in to playing more off ball and be available than to play on ball and be the engine.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 8:57 am to carrguitar
quote:
Are we all in agreement that this is why the team is stressing BI to take more 3's (other than the obvious data reasons of a 3 being a better shot than a midrange 2)? They are having to get BI to buy in to playing more off ball and be available than to play on ball and be the engine.
Which is why we should trade BI. Trey could play that role 10x better.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 11:13 am to carrguitar
quote:
Are we all in agreement that this is why the team is stressing BI to take more 3's
To get BI more off-ball? lol .... that answer would be no, to help open up the offense would be yes. Team wants BI
Taking the 3 ball, particularly above the key off high-picks and in transition, as it's essential to keep the floor open and prevent defenses from flattening.
In regards to Zion starting off initiating, keep in mind that BI, CJ, and Zion are all averaging near career highs in assists so they've done a good job with ball-movement and want to keep the ball moving in the offense. I'd suspect that Pels are attempting to get Zion engaged earlier and have the team playing with more force, that it typically does when Zion initiates.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 11:23 am to Pistol44
It's a simple concept. To maximize Zion and BI as a tandem, Zion has to be the ball handler when they are on the floor together. If you take the ball out of Zion's hands, you essentially take him out of the possession/play since none of our players can maximize Zion's impact offball. Ingram has shown he can be effective off ball and as a bailout option.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 11:45 am to supe12sta12z
quote:
To maximize Zion and BI as a tandem, Zion has to be the ball handler when they are on the floor together
That's not really the case, you most certainly can have BI initiate with Zion on the court. You're selling Zion short if you think he and the team can only be effective with him initiating the offense. Zion is a pretty heady player.
You can have Zion as a screener, post option, or baseline cutter without him initiating. The most effective action will directly involve BI/Zion, but we'll likely see the same action with CJ/Zion and soon Hawk/Zion. I do suspect the coaching staff and players are holding back some wrinkles in this offense, and we'll see more diverse action as the season progresses.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 11:52 am to Pistol44
We have enough evidence watching Zion sitting in the corner and getting iced out of possessions because the team has no idea how to get him involved off ball. We are terrible getting him the ball in traffic in the half court and we are terrible getting him the ball on the low block when he has the defender sealed.
It's nothing new or unusual with this team. It's probably the big reason why we give get him the ball on the elbow so often. It's because it's the most effective way for these guys to get him the ball.
The problem isn't the fact that we can't initiate the offense with BI even with Z. The problem is the inconsistencies with getting Z the ball off these actions with any consistency.
Z will be more likely to get BI the ball with some consistency than BI is able to just because Zion commands more gravity than BI.
It's nothing new or unusual with this team. It's probably the big reason why we give get him the ball on the elbow so often. It's because it's the most effective way for these guys to get him the ball.
The problem isn't the fact that we can't initiate the offense with BI even with Z. The problem is the inconsistencies with getting Z the ball off these actions with any consistency.
Z will be more likely to get BI the ball with some consistency than BI is able to just because Zion commands more gravity than BI.
This post was edited on 1/23/24 at 11:57 am
Posted on 1/23/24 at 11:56 am to Pistol44
quote:You can, but it isn't maximizing the 2 if Zion isn't the lead facilitator/ball handler.
That's not really the case, you most certainly can have BI initiate with Zion on the court.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 12:00 pm to supe12sta12z
quote:
We have enough evidence watching Zion sitting in the corner and getting iced out of possessions because the team has no idea how to get him involved off ball
OK, be real ... how much of this is due to Zion's conditioning?
Posted on 1/23/24 at 12:02 pm to Pistol44
Per Willie, We're going to this moving forward aren't we?
Posted on 1/23/24 at 12:05 pm to supe12sta12z
quote:
Per Willie, We're going to this moving forward aren't we?
Per Coach Green, “We will look to get the ball more in Zion’s hands at the start of games” .... not the same
Posted on 1/23/24 at 12:09 pm to Pistol44
You should actually listen to the interview where he explains the reason why they want to get the Ball in Z's hands. It's pretty clear.
This post was edited on 1/23/24 at 12:10 pm
Posted on 1/23/24 at 12:23 pm to supe12sta12z
I put exactly zero stock into anything Zion or Wilie says.
This is the same Willie who said in the preseason and over and over throughout the season that we should shoot 40 3s per game, then would go out and play defensive lineups, sit shooters, and stagger Zion/Trey.
I put zero stock into this Willie quote. I will believe it when I see it happen.
This is the same Willie who said in the preseason and over and over throughout the season that we should shoot 40 3s per game, then would go out and play defensive lineups, sit shooters, and stagger Zion/Trey.
I put zero stock into this Willie quote. I will believe it when I see it happen.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 12:24 pm to shel311
I posted the clip on the first page. It was one of a list of things they were working on. This thread is definitely making it a bigger deal than Willie thinks it is.
Posted on 1/23/24 at 12:27 pm to TigerinATL
quote:Agreed
I posted the clip on the first page. It was one of a list of things they were working on. This thread is definitely making it a bigger deal than Willie thinks it is.
I sure hope its' right, and we're using all these days off to install a new look and revamped Zion centric offense.
I'm just not going to think even 1% that it's likely until I see it happen.
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