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re: Who wants a #HOTTAKE?
Posted on 11/6/17 at 1:06 pm to TeddyPadillac
Posted on 11/6/17 at 1:06 pm to TeddyPadillac
Dell thought that he was getting those guys on a bargain too. LMFAO!
0
Posted on 11/6/17 at 1:59 pm to TeddyPadillac
Not really sure what you're trying to argue here.
You're re-litigating all the dumb moves Demps has made, which is not part of this discussion.
All I am saying is that it is a hell of a lot easier to sit here, with Holiday playing like shite, and say he shouldn't have been brought back. Most of the comments I've seen from Pels fans/bloggers since the summer have been on board (with fair questions about his $$) with Holiday coming back until his shitty recent play. I've actually been consistent in that I think it's a little nuts to give a guy that much $$ and then have him switch positions/roles. That if you don't want career PG Holiday to play PG anymore, you shouldn't max him out as an off ball player.
This is an interesting question. I don't think it's dumb to sign guys you think will improve to longer deals. It can be a way to find a discount. Likewise, if you hit on a shorter deal, you have a harder time keeping those guys on the team (see Hawks).
The problem for the Pels has been a continued mis-evaluation of player growth/value and, in my opinion, a lack of a vision for how to build a successful team
You're re-litigating all the dumb moves Demps has made, which is not part of this discussion.
All I am saying is that it is a hell of a lot easier to sit here, with Holiday playing like shite, and say he shouldn't have been brought back. Most of the comments I've seen from Pels fans/bloggers since the summer have been on board (with fair questions about his $$) with Holiday coming back until his shitty recent play. I've actually been consistent in that I think it's a little nuts to give a guy that much $$ and then have him switch positions/roles. That if you don't want career PG Holiday to play PG anymore, you shouldn't max him out as an off ball player.
quote:
Why would you want to be tied down to a role player for 4 years?
This is an interesting question. I don't think it's dumb to sign guys you think will improve to longer deals. It can be a way to find a discount. Likewise, if you hit on a shorter deal, you have a harder time keeping those guys on the team (see Hawks).
The problem for the Pels has been a continued mis-evaluation of player growth/value and, in my opinion, a lack of a vision for how to build a successful team
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:13 pm to corndeaux
quote:
The problem for the Pels has been a continued mis-evaluation of player growth/value and, in my opinion, a lack of a vision for how to build a successful team
That is the bigger issue, i agree.
quote:
Most of the comments I've seen from Pels fans/bloggers since the summer have been on board (with fair questions about his $$) with Holiday coming back until his shitty recent play
I don't think anyone thought giving him 5/125 was a good idea. I think many wanted to keep him, and figured we'd have to overpay to do so, so they were ok with it, especially considering the salary issues we had and the alternative to letting him walk for this year.
No one, our GM included, was willing to not look like they wanted to win for a year (letting Jrue walk), to give them team a better chance to win in the future. It should have been done with Asik, and it should have been done with Jrue.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 2:29 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I don't think anyone thought giving him 5/125 was a good idea.
There were multiple people making comparison of Holiday's resigning with Asik's before July 1st. I understand giving Holiday a 5 year deal pre Cousins when you were grasping for a 2nd cornerstone, but Cousins' arrival should have changed the equation.
I think part of the problem and where the hindsight analysis is a bit unfair to Demps is that since Jrue was already on the team so you had to lay the ground work early on a new deal. It was hard to know in advance that guys like Hill and Teague would only get 3 year deals. That being said, if the market for those 2 had ended up being full 5 year maxes you know Jrue wouldn't have "settled" for $25. The lack of loyalty does go both ways. But you also have to be pretty careful in how you treat your players. Giving someone an offer they can't refuse but don't want can lead to Hornican Eric Gordon as opposed to Rocket Eric Gordon.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 3:39 pm to TigerinATL
I know it's easy for me to sit back here and say this was stupid or that was stupid. I know there are a lot of things as a fan we will never see or know that goes into negotiations.
The part i don't understand is that the GM and the Coach had to both feel that Jrue was very very important to this team going forward to even think about offering him the contract he got. What have they seen to think he deserves the type of money.
Just a reminder, we made Jrue the 14th highest paid player in the NBA. 14th. He's not even the 14th best backcourt player in the nba.
Here's a list of guys that are locked in for 4+ years making over $20M/yr
Steph Curry
Blake Griffin
Russell Westbrook
Mike Conley
James Harden
Damian Lillard
Jrue Holiday
CJ McCollum
Bradley Beal
Stephen Adams
Giannis
Rudy Gobert
Victor Oladipo
John Wall
Jrue's name does not belong in that list. Neither does Oladipo, but he's actually playing really well.
Why did Toronto's GM know he could resign his guy for only 3 years? How did Denvers GM know he could get Milsaps for 3 years. How did Minny's GM know they could get Teague for 3 years.
JJ Reddick gets 1 year, KCP gets 1 year. George Hill could only muster a 3 year deal from Sacto.
Where was the market for the 5 year guy? Curry, Griffin, Westbrook and Harden. That was the market. and yes i konw Jrue's 5th year is a player option, but at this rate we all know he's opting into that.
Waiters signed 4/52
Hardaway 4/71 with the 4th year player option
Snell 4/46
Otto Porter 4/104 with 4th year player option
Joe Ingles 4/50
PJ Tucker 4/32
Ibaka 3/65
Gallinari 3/65
Olynk 4/50
They point is Jrue isn't some elite level player, yet we gave him a contract like he was, and that has nothing to do with how he's playing right now. That statement was true 4 months ago. He even gave you a reason to believe he wasn't going to mesh with AD and Cousins in the last few games of the season where he looked terrible with them, and they completely ignored that.
The part i don't understand is that the GM and the Coach had to both feel that Jrue was very very important to this team going forward to even think about offering him the contract he got. What have they seen to think he deserves the type of money.
Just a reminder, we made Jrue the 14th highest paid player in the NBA. 14th. He's not even the 14th best backcourt player in the nba.
Here's a list of guys that are locked in for 4+ years making over $20M/yr
Steph Curry
Blake Griffin
Russell Westbrook
Mike Conley
James Harden
Damian Lillard
Jrue Holiday
CJ McCollum
Bradley Beal
Stephen Adams
Giannis
Rudy Gobert
Victor Oladipo
John Wall
Jrue's name does not belong in that list. Neither does Oladipo, but he's actually playing really well.
Why did Toronto's GM know he could resign his guy for only 3 years? How did Denvers GM know he could get Milsaps for 3 years. How did Minny's GM know they could get Teague for 3 years.
JJ Reddick gets 1 year, KCP gets 1 year. George Hill could only muster a 3 year deal from Sacto.
Where was the market for the 5 year guy? Curry, Griffin, Westbrook and Harden. That was the market. and yes i konw Jrue's 5th year is a player option, but at this rate we all know he's opting into that.
Waiters signed 4/52
Hardaway 4/71 with the 4th year player option
Snell 4/46
Otto Porter 4/104 with 4th year player option
Joe Ingles 4/50
PJ Tucker 4/32
Ibaka 3/65
Gallinari 3/65
Olynk 4/50
They point is Jrue isn't some elite level player, yet we gave him a contract like he was, and that has nothing to do with how he's playing right now. That statement was true 4 months ago. He even gave you a reason to believe he wasn't going to mesh with AD and Cousins in the last few games of the season where he looked terrible with them, and they completely ignored that.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 4:07 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Why did Toronto's GM know he could resign his guy for only 3 years? How did Denvers GM know he could get Milsaps for 3 years. How did Minny's GM know they could get Teague for 3 years.
JJ Reddick gets 1 year, KCP gets 1 year. George Hill could only muster a 3 year deal from Sacto.
1) most of those guys got short deals because they're older and KCP was just looking for a temporary home.
2) 2 offsesaons ago everyone thought short deals would be what everyone signed hoping to opt out and cash in the following year when the cap escalated that didn't happen. It's really hard to predict this stuff. Masai Ujiri hasn't done a better job than Demps because he only offered old Kyle Lowry a 3 year deal, he's done a better job than Demps because he's managed his assets well and been patient enough to give himself options instead of forcing his own hand to make moves before he was ready.
We've seen the Hornicans mismanage 2 star player builds now and it was never one bad move that killed them. That last or biggest bad move is what people focused on, but it was usually a series of bad moves that compound and lead to even worse choices. Giving Jrue that contract is the symptom. The disease is that as little as 8 months ago he was the 2nd best player on the team because they made bad bets on guys getting better as you and corndeaux already discussed.
This post was edited on 11/6/17 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 11/6/17 at 4:27 pm to TigerinATL
My subtlety to everything i said was, who were we bidding against? Why'd we have to give him 5/125? was somebody else going to do that, b/c it doesn't appear anyone would have done anything near that.
There obviously wasn't some huge market for non-elite players this offseason when you see really good players settling for 3 year deals, and some of them having to resort to 1 year deals b/c no one wants to give them the multi year deal they were expecting to get.
Was there truly a team out there wanting to give Jrue anywhere near that much money? Just like with Asik, who were we bidding with? Who were we trying to keep him from going to? Where we so scared of losing him for nothing that we offered him a retarded amount so early hoping he wouldn't even explore the market?
Do we really think Philly would have given him that contract? i don't.
Maybe the knicks would have, doing a S&T.
There were other teams with cap space that could have signed him, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Chicago, Denver, Indy, LAC, LAL, Miami, Phoenix, Sacto, Utah. How many of those teams had any interest in signing a PG, or Jrue?
Most of those teams either didn't need a PG, or weren't in a position to want to give out long term contracts b/c they are rebuilding.
As i said, it's easy to sit here not in the GM's office, after all is said and done, and second guess everything, but what if you don't offer him anything at first and see what the market dictates? we might have gotten away with 3/60.
There obviously wasn't some huge market for non-elite players this offseason when you see really good players settling for 3 year deals, and some of them having to resort to 1 year deals b/c no one wants to give them the multi year deal they were expecting to get.
Was there truly a team out there wanting to give Jrue anywhere near that much money? Just like with Asik, who were we bidding with? Who were we trying to keep him from going to? Where we so scared of losing him for nothing that we offered him a retarded amount so early hoping he wouldn't even explore the market?
Do we really think Philly would have given him that contract? i don't.
Maybe the knicks would have, doing a S&T.
There were other teams with cap space that could have signed him, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Chicago, Denver, Indy, LAC, LAL, Miami, Phoenix, Sacto, Utah. How many of those teams had any interest in signing a PG, or Jrue?
Most of those teams either didn't need a PG, or weren't in a position to want to give out long term contracts b/c they are rebuilding.
As i said, it's easy to sit here not in the GM's office, after all is said and done, and second guess everything, but what if you don't offer him anything at first and see what the market dictates? we might have gotten away with 3/60.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 4:40 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
My subtlety to everything i said was, who were we bidding against? Why'd we have to give him 5/125? was somebody else going to do that, b/c it doesn't appear anyone would have done anything near that.
There obviously wasn't some huge market for non-elite players this offseason when you see really good players settling for 3 year deals, and some of them having to resort to 1 year deals b/c no one wants to give them the multi year deal they were expecting to get.
Jrue and his agent leaked out all the "he's not coming back" stuff if you recall. It's not so much, "who were we bidding against" as much as making Dell believe if he let him out of the room without a big deal that he wouldn't be coming back. Demps got played.
This post was edited on 11/6/17 at 4:41 pm
Posted on 11/6/17 at 4:44 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
We've seen the Hornicans mismanage 2 star player builds now and it was never one bad move that killed them.
The attempted trade of Tyson is what killed the CP3 era. Not Peja's contract, or James Posey's. It can all be traced back to that, and snowballed from there very quickly.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 4:45 pm to ShamelessPel
quote:
Jrue and his agent leaked out all the "he's not coming back" stuff if you recall. It's not so much, "who were we bidding against" as much as making Dell believe if he let him out of the room without a big deal that he wouldn't be coming back. Demps got played.
Yep. good agent. bad GM.
but still, why were they so scared of him leaving?
Posted on 11/6/17 at 4:57 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
My subtlety to everything i said was, who were we bidding against? Why'd we have to give him 5/125
Al Horford left Atlanta because they wouldn't give him the full 5 year max. They only partially guaranteed the 5th year. Atlanta offered him more guarnateed money than Boston could but he still left and he said he'd have stayed if they guaranteed the full 5th year.
When you're the home team and a player and you're not giving them everything you can you're basically saying no. Whereas the team making a competing offer that gets to that point is obviously telling them things that they want to hear.
quote:
what if you don't offer him anything at first and see what the market dictates?
That's probably considered disrespectful. I remember hearing a few years back that Morey got blacklisted with some agents because he never offered early extensions and always let the market decide. Obviously Morey found ways to make that not matter, but it does suggest that playing hardball with your own player that you want to keep can come with complications.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 5:11 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
Al Horford left Atlanta because they wouldn't give him the full 5 year max. They only partially guaranteed the 5th year. Atlanta offered him more guarnateed money than Boston could but he still left and he said he'd have stayed if they guaranteed the full 5th year.
Maybe Atlanta had decided that it wasn't that important for them to keep Horford anymore at a certain costs. I mean they had a few years of not getting deep in the playoffs, and he was on the trading block earlier that year. They got Dwight instead, for cheaper, and they were already looking to blow it all up anyway.
We seem like we were willing to keep Jrue no matter what. Atlanta said "this is what we are willing to give you, and if you don't like it, we are ok with you leaving."
Posted on 11/6/17 at 5:19 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
We seem like we were willing to keep Jrue no matter what. Atlanta said "this is what we are willing to give you, and if you don't like it, we are ok with you leaving."
You're looking at that example from the wrong direction. The point was the home team was held to a higher standard by the player. Zach Lowe and I believe it was Kevin Arnovitz were talking about this a few months back and they made it sound like it's a very real issue that teams run into when resigning players.
If the Pels had matched the market price of 3/$60 I believe Holiday would be on another team right now. Even if you had gotten him down to 3 years you still probably have to be closer to $25 than $18 for him to sign. How much you're willing to spend to keep Holiday vs. pursuing other options is an entirely different conversation.
This post was edited on 11/6/17 at 5:20 pm
Posted on 11/6/17 at 5:24 pm to TigerinATL
I get what you're saying.
The point still remains, the Pels did not want to let Jrue go for any reason. That's what i don't get.
The point still remains, the Pels did not want to let Jrue go for any reason. That's what i don't get.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 8:28 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
they were already looking to blow it all up anyway.
so this answers, in part, your question about why the Pels were eager to keep Holiday.
Pels are not at the end of the cycle, like the Hawks were. they have a 24 yo stud in Davis, whose last few years have been wasted already. they are hoping to start a run of playoff appearances and they are also hoping to give themselves, as a franchise, some legitimacy across the league; which may open up further moves.
now, certainly fair to question how Holiday fits next to Davis+Cousins. and obviously smart to question if capping themselves out for another few years is the best way to maximize Davis's time/talents.
Posted on 11/6/17 at 11:02 pm to corndeaux
I'm so happy at the anarchy the original post brought forth. Jrue sucks, D Rose is still GOAT. Pels are fricked at the guard, but a .500 team because of 2 MVP caliber bigs. I love the roller coaster ride, forget having a fun team...bring on the DRAMA!!!!
also
FREE JORDAN CLARKSON & LUOL DENG. FREE ERIC BLEDSOE. FREE REGGIE JACKSON. FREE DENNIS SCHRODERINGER'S CAT.
also
FREE JORDAN CLARKSON & LUOL DENG. FREE ERIC BLEDSOE. FREE REGGIE JACKSON. FREE DENNIS SCHRODERINGER'S CAT.
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