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The Pull Up Jumper
Posted on 6/8/21 at 12:56 pm
Posted on 6/8/21 at 12:56 pm
If you've watched these playoffs it's hard to miss how important of a skill the pullup jumper and making contested shots has become. Dame/Jokic/Kawhi/Luka/Trae/KD, pretty much all the star players on the teams that didn't lose quickly in round 1 can do this. It's not on Griff's offseason wish list, is that a problem? Is Griff focusing on the wrong thing (defense) while we're watching the league shift even more to offense before our eyes?
Shamit had a good twitter thread about this topic: LINK The bullet points are he thinks CJ McCollum would make a good target and BI/NAW are the top candidates on the Pels to lean into developing this skill.
He also posted this:
Also related:
Again, the question to me is, is Griff zigging while the league is zagging, and not in a good way? When top players are beating good defense with elite offense, does having a good defense matter, or is it a straight up offensive arms race now?
Shamit had a good twitter thread about this topic: LINK The bullet points are he thinks CJ McCollum would make a good target and BI/NAW are the top candidates on the Pels to lean into developing this skill.
He also posted this:
quote:
Shamit Dua @FearTheBrown
This is the top 30 over the last two years in points scored via unassisted three, I also included their assisted 3 points to show the ratio. Note, Tatum at 5th place is basically half Lillard in 1st. That's how wide the gap is. (Steph was injured most of last year)
Also related:
quote:
Owen Phillips @owenlhjphillips · 2h
Percent of playoffs 3PAs that have been contested (defender within 6 feet)
Durant is making 50 percent of his threes, even though 90 percent of them are contested. Not really sure what the Bucks are supposed to do about that
Again, the question to me is, is Griff zigging while the league is zagging, and not in a good way? When top players are beating good defense with elite offense, does having a good defense matter, or is it a straight up offensive arms race now?
6
Posted on 6/8/21 at 1:17 pm to TigerinATL
Uhhh, the pull up jumper is one of the things Ingram excels at (in the first 3 quarters anyways)
Posted on 6/8/21 at 1:21 pm to saints5021
I’m not saying it’s not, in fact Ingram and NAW were mentioned in the post. I just wonder if this defensive detour the Pels are taking was a good idea or if they should have just hired Finch and leaned into the offense.
Griff is focused on defense at a time where offense seems to be ahead of the defense and carrying the day.
Griff is focused on defense at a time where offense seems to be ahead of the defense and carrying the day.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 1:24 pm to TigerinATL
The Pelicans have been zagging since CP3 left and it has gotten us no where. We went young vet route when everyone was building super teams or home grown teams. We went "Do It Big" when everyone was going small. Now we are all in on leave the entire 3 point line open at all times when the league is the most efficient at 3 pointers.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 1:34 pm to TigerinATL
It would be nice to have a guy with pull up ability all the way out to 30 feet. Solves all kinds of spacing woes for this squad.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 1:34 pm to TigerinATL
Griff said shooting, along with IQ and toughness(he related toughness to conditioning in his post season press conference, now the strength and conditioning guy is already gone) are the most important areas that have to improve on this roster.
We'll see what he actually does, but he's definitely acknowledged we have to get better offensively, and specifically need more shooting.
We'll see what he actually does, but he's definitely acknowledged we have to get better offensively, and specifically need more shooting.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 1:37 pm to TigerinATL
Great stuff here.
You build your team for the playoffs, not the regular season.
We desperately needed to make the playoffs the last two years to get a taste of how these guys play. I still don't believe Lonzo can play playoff basketball.
And I absolutely think we should go after CJ. Portland is not going to want we have for him, but we'll need to find out who they want, and help facilitate that 3rd team. We shouldn't have to break open the warchest for CJ. Portland is the desperate team here. They need to upgrade him badly. They'll give up more than they need to in order to bring someone in, just like Milwaukee did with Jrue. If we brought CJ in, we'd still need a PG, mainly a good defensive PG that can knock down 3's. Hell i'd be fine with Pat Beverley as a stop gap while Kira gets better.
You build your team for the playoffs, not the regular season.
We desperately needed to make the playoffs the last two years to get a taste of how these guys play. I still don't believe Lonzo can play playoff basketball.
And I absolutely think we should go after CJ. Portland is not going to want we have for him, but we'll need to find out who they want, and help facilitate that 3rd team. We shouldn't have to break open the warchest for CJ. Portland is the desperate team here. They need to upgrade him badly. They'll give up more than they need to in order to bring someone in, just like Milwaukee did with Jrue. If we brought CJ in, we'd still need a PG, mainly a good defensive PG that can knock down 3's. Hell i'd be fine with Pat Beverley as a stop gap while Kira gets better.
This post was edited on 6/8/21 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 6/8/21 at 1:38 pm to supe12sta12z
quote:
It would be nice to have a guy with pull up ability all the way out to 30 feet
We have one. His name is Jaxson Hayes.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 1:45 pm to TeddyPadillac
I think they can get a guy in the draft with very similar game to McCollum in Tre Mann. He's exactly what the OP describes and compares favorably to McCollum.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 1:50 pm to saints5021
Ingram shot 30% on pull up threes... He has a long way to go but it's 100% an area the Pels need to invest in with him
Posted on 6/8/21 at 1:55 pm to TigerinATL
like most things in life, I don't think it's an either/or situation. We obviously need to put an emphasis on defense. I read yesterday that no team in history has won a championship without a top 15 defense (this year's Brooklyn team would be the first if they win). The question I think we are getting at is, and I agree, how much of an emphasis should we put on building a defense.
for example, I think most would consider Giannis to be a better overall player than KD, or at least a better defender & rebounder. but how many would prefer Giannis to KD to win in the playoffs?
I'd bet the answer is almost zero and that's because Durant has superior offense, especially as a pull-up shooter.
KD is a good enough defender to not be a liability while being virtually unstoppable on the other end. There's a balance in there somewhere but I agree that jump-shooting weighs heavier on the scales
for example, I think most would consider Giannis to be a better overall player than KD, or at least a better defender & rebounder. but how many would prefer Giannis to KD to win in the playoffs?
I'd bet the answer is almost zero and that's because Durant has superior offense, especially as a pull-up shooter.
KD is a good enough defender to not be a liability while being virtually unstoppable on the other end. There's a balance in there somewhere but I agree that jump-shooting weighs heavier on the scales
This post was edited on 6/8/21 at 2:08 pm
Posted on 6/8/21 at 2:12 pm to DeionDeion
KD is an extremely underrated defender, and most people already know he's a good defender.
He is hands down the best scorer in the league, maybe ever, and he's out there banging with Brook Lopez or guarding Jrue out on the perimeter, and doing it effectively. For a guy that couldn't bench press 135 at the draft, he plays a lot stronger than he looks.
He's never even been in consideration for all nba defensive team, yet Kobe and Lebron have 5 of them, and KD is a much better defender than both of those lazy defenders.
Of course everyone would want him over Giannis. The only person that can stop him on offense is himself, by not making shots. There's no such thing as contesting his shot b/c all of his shots are "contested", he just doesn't care b/c he knows no one will ever block him.
He is hands down the best scorer in the league, maybe ever, and he's out there banging with Brook Lopez or guarding Jrue out on the perimeter, and doing it effectively. For a guy that couldn't bench press 135 at the draft, he plays a lot stronger than he looks.
He's never even been in consideration for all nba defensive team, yet Kobe and Lebron have 5 of them, and KD is a much better defender than both of those lazy defenders.
Of course everyone would want him over Giannis. The only person that can stop him on offense is himself, by not making shots. There's no such thing as contesting his shot b/c all of his shots are "contested", he just doesn't care b/c he knows no one will ever block him.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 3:07 pm to TeddyPadillac
I don't disagree with anything you've said. But my point wasn't to debate how good KD is on defense and/or how unstoppable he is on offense.
My point was that there is a spectrum to what should be focused on both individually and as a team. And I think what we are seeing is that average defending and above-average pull-up shooting >>>> average pull-up shooting and above-average defending. and that the Pelicans focus team-wide should probably reflect that
My point was that there is a spectrum to what should be focused on both individually and as a team. And I think what we are seeing is that average defending and above-average pull-up shooting >>>> average pull-up shooting and above-average defending. and that the Pelicans focus team-wide should probably reflect that
This post was edited on 6/8/21 at 3:09 pm
Posted on 6/8/21 at 3:55 pm to eyeran
If They don't get shooting this off season ill be done with griff.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 4:04 pm to saints5021
quote:
the pull up jumper
not Zion.
not Morant either.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 4:10 pm to TigerinATL
I see a league w/o real pivots now...
Nets: Blake Griffin at C
Clippers : Batum at C
Bucks : Lopez at C (but plays like a PF)
We need to put Zion at C...
Nets: Blake Griffin at C
Clippers : Batum at C
Bucks : Lopez at C (but plays like a PF)
We need to put Zion at C...
This post was edited on 6/8/21 at 4:10 pm
Posted on 6/8/21 at 4:17 pm to DeionDeion
and my point is more along the lines is KD is not someone we should be comparing anyone to. He's special. He's better than any defense.
It's too early to tell, but we'll see how the "offense is more important than the defense" will play out in these playoffs. The Bucks have the defenders to play with Brooklyn, and i think Philly does too. Kyrie and KD are two of the most skilled offensive players that have ever played, so basing anything off of how that team is constructed is pointless.
but i get what you are getting at.
It's too early to tell, but we'll see how the "offense is more important than the defense" will play out in these playoffs. The Bucks have the defenders to play with Brooklyn, and i think Philly does too. Kyrie and KD are two of the most skilled offensive players that have ever played, so basing anything off of how that team is constructed is pointless.
but i get what you are getting at.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 4:29 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
we'll see how the "offense is more important than the defense" will play out in these playoffs.
We're kind of already seeing it. The Knicks were the #4 defense this season and Trae Young made them his bitch. Philly was the #2 defense. So far Atlanta is up 1-0. We'll see if that trend continues like you said, but after watching Luka and Kawhi go head to head and just make a ton of contested shots, it feels like the level of star shot making is absurd these days.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 5:22 pm to TigerinATL
None of those guys at the top of that list have won anything though, have they?
I got down the list and see Curry and Lebron, both more balanced, Curry even leans heavily towards assisted makes.
I do think that data point is much different than hitting contested 3's. To me, contested 3's have always been the sign of a great shooter. And honestly, a separator when it comes to good teams and bad teams.
He goes on to say in his tweet:
Ok, but what exactly are we pushing as the benefit?
Being able to hit that shot should not equal attempting more of those shots.
Encouraging him to take lower percentage shots, why? I am all ears.
But this data just kind of tells you who does it and who does it good.
I got down the list and see Curry and Lebron, both more balanced, Curry even leans heavily towards assisted makes.
I do think that data point is much different than hitting contested 3's. To me, contested 3's have always been the sign of a great shooter. And honestly, a separator when it comes to good teams and bad teams.
He goes on to say in his tweet:
quote:
"steadily increasing and encouraging Ingram in this department can have a tremendous downstream impact, he's tall enough to shoot over anyone basically.
The other guy here is NAW. Has the most wiggle on the team."
Ok, but what exactly are we pushing as the benefit?
Being able to hit that shot should not equal attempting more of those shots.
Encouraging him to take lower percentage shots, why? I am all ears.
But this data just kind of tells you who does it and who does it good.
Posted on 6/8/21 at 7:51 pm to Chalkywhite84
quote:
If They don't get shooting this off season ill be done with griff.
Agreed.
I have sorta given him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn’t trying to build anything early on.
That when Zion was getting into his second contract we would just have him and BI locked in and any of the other guys we wanted + cap space.
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