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Message
re: Pels think they are a playoff team with or without Holiday
Posted on 5/2/17 at 3:37 pm to TigerinATL
Posted on 5/2/17 at 3:37 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
The only team that can offer a full $30 million max without changing their roster
you make this seem like:
1) the changes must be massive in order to sign Holiday. teams close to the max and with interest can easily move smaller contracts to make a higher bid
2) that nothing other than a full max is going to get him to leave. what if the Pels don't want to start at even $25M/year?
quote:
I go after Teague
different players with different strengths. if you're looking for a primary creator for your offense, you take Teague and the savings every time. if you want a combo guard who can defend multiple positions, you pay a premium for Holiday.
Schwan had a list on Twitter of suitors
quote:
The way I see it, the teams with Cap Space in the 25 Mil+ range that could nuke the Jrue Market are: BKN, DAL, LAL, MIN, MIA, NYK and PHI.
i doubt Dallas or BKN have much interest. dunno about Miami....but if i'm LAL, MIN, NYK, or PHI i definitely pay a premium. and this isn't even considering a darkhorse suitor, like the Spurs. they didn't have the money for Aldridge either...until they did
This post was edited on 5/2/17 at 3:38 pm
1
Posted on 5/2/17 at 4:12 pm to corndeaux
quote:
1) the changes must be massive in order to sign Holiday. teams close to the max and with interest can easily move smaller contracts to make a higher bid
We're not talking about clearing space for a true max player. Holiday is a max player in name only. Can the Knicks easily dump say Kyle O'Quin and all of their Quinn Cooks? Yes. But if you do that the only player you're getting is Jrue Holiday and hoping you can use the Room Exception on Justin. I think the Knicks would be better off keeping their cheap depth and exploring a S&T. Lance Thomas for Holiday like MM had thrown out. Then the Knicks get their man with less damage to depth.
We're not quite begging for a S&T like Sacramento was with Tyreke, but these teams with initial cap space in the low $20s would most likely be better off convincing Holiday and the Pels that a S&T is better for everyone than them making the moves it would take to outbid the Pels.
quote:
nothing other than a full max is going to get him to leave.
I was responding specifically to someone who said they thought he'd get a max offer. I'm not saying he won't get offered more than the Pels think he's worth, I just don't think anyone is going to drop $30 per on him.
Posted on 5/2/17 at 4:15 pm to TigerinATL
To me Holiday is a 15 mill per year player that should get realistically 20 mill per year in this market, but will get anywhere from 25-30 in reality.
Anything more than 25 and he can walk, imo. Honestly, past 21ish I would start to really look at other options.
He's a versatile player...he's just not really that great.
Anything more than 25 and he can walk, imo. Honestly, past 21ish I would start to really look at other options.
He's a versatile player...he's just not really that great.
Posted on 5/2/17 at 4:40 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
I think the Knicks would be better off keeping their cheap depth
i agree. but they are managed like a HS sophomore who has had too many wine coolers- lots of puking and crying after the fact- and Porzingis is not amused.
quote:
I just don't think anyone is going to drop $30 per on him.
gotcha. i agree, but, like you say, it only takes one. i think he still ends up somewhere around $25M/year. we'll see how much the Pels really want to spend to keep him.
Posted on 5/2/17 at 4:44 pm to corndeaux
Jrue Holiday will be the best player to change teams IMO. People will offer him the max because they can get him and that's what it will take. It is what it is, and I understand if the Pels don't want to go there. I just hope they understand the market.
Posted on 5/2/17 at 4:45 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
He's a versatile player...he's just not really that great.
Agree. I've seen enough of Holiday. I ain't paying him 20+M. No way.
I like Teague.
I want Hardaway, Jr.
Posted on 5/2/17 at 5:09 pm to Gtothemoney
I'm sorry I had to downvote you for the Teague talk.
Posted on 5/2/17 at 7:48 pm to TigerinATL
Paying the 20th best PG in the NBA $21 million or more is fricking idiocy
This post was edited on 5/2/17 at 7:49 pm
Posted on 5/2/17 at 10:31 pm to TigerinATL
I think we should re sign Holiday unless a clearly better guard becomes available. I doubt we're gonna be clear playoff contenders with or without Jrue though. As long as we have Gentry and Ad/DC we're gonna have trouble creating offense.
If we resign DC it increases the chances we could swap him with a team that is guard heavy like Toronto. At some point we're going to need a guard who creates at will or we'll be stuck in the first round
If we resign DC it increases the chances we could swap him with a team that is guard heavy like Toronto. At some point we're going to need a guard who creates at will or we'll be stuck in the first round
Posted on 5/2/17 at 10:41 pm to Corporal Beavis
You can't just say "We should re-sign Jrue"
Unless you truly believe that you re-sign him no matter the cost. You wanna give him 170 million?
Otherwise, your theoretical offseason should be a lot more nuanced. Like, you'd sign him at X price but you won't pay Y. And if you lose him, you would do A, B, and C
Saying "I would re-sign Holiday" is not good enough. More detail is needed.
Unless you truly believe that you re-sign him no matter the cost. You wanna give him 170 million?
Otherwise, your theoretical offseason should be a lot more nuanced. Like, you'd sign him at X price but you won't pay Y. And if you lose him, you would do A, B, and C
Saying "I would re-sign Holiday" is not good enough. More detail is needed.
Posted on 5/2/17 at 11:26 pm to Crewz
20-21 is the max I'd pay for him. I hope if they do reign him it isn't for more than that, though there's a strong chance of that happening.
Posted on 5/2/17 at 11:55 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
Patty Mills would be a homerun imo, but he has priced himself out of our range.
I like Patty Mills a lot, but I am not quite sure he is a full time starter. He is a damn good shooter and really good for 20_25 mins a night. But I am not sure he is a 30+ min per game player.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 1:08 am to Crewz
Fair enough
As long as Gentry is here we won't be using our towers as effectively as possible. Seems like he's staying for now though
With that said,we need Jrues playmaking to set up our towers inside and is worth resigning at a little of $20 mil a year. We have to many holes to fill with just the mle left even if we stretch asik to clear up space. We'd be better off getting a reliable back up or forward big rather than adding another gaurd or were going to get killed on defense.
As long as Gentry is here we should look into trading DeMarcus cousins for a playing making guard. If we fire him after next year and hire a coach that is more suitable to our roster we should stick to the core of jrue, DMC, and AD. As much as I want DMC to work here, a big part of me thinks we would be better off trading him.
If we don't resign jrue for whatever reason we should extend DeMarcus to maximize his trade value. As long as we dont waste money like we did on Solo and Asik we could stay the course from there until we get a hefty haul for Cousins.
We should really be looking down the road for when we get all our shite contracts off the books and not get impatient to spend before then. Regardless of what we do, our cap situation leaves little room for error
As long as Gentry is here we won't be using our towers as effectively as possible. Seems like he's staying for now though
With that said,we need Jrues playmaking to set up our towers inside and is worth resigning at a little of $20 mil a year. We have to many holes to fill with just the mle left even if we stretch asik to clear up space. We'd be better off getting a reliable back up or forward big rather than adding another gaurd or were going to get killed on defense.
As long as Gentry is here we should look into trading DeMarcus cousins for a playing making guard. If we fire him after next year and hire a coach that is more suitable to our roster we should stick to the core of jrue, DMC, and AD. As much as I want DMC to work here, a big part of me thinks we would be better off trading him.
If we don't resign jrue for whatever reason we should extend DeMarcus to maximize his trade value. As long as we dont waste money like we did on Solo and Asik we could stay the course from there until we get a hefty haul for Cousins.
We should really be looking down the road for when we get all our shite contracts off the books and not get impatient to spend before then. Regardless of what we do, our cap situation leaves little room for error
Posted on 5/3/17 at 2:44 am to CocoLoco
quote:
20-21 is the max I'd pay for him. I hope if they do reign him it isn't for more than that, though there's a strong chance of that happening.
My feelings on what my ceiling for Jrue is completely dependent on how confident we are in Cousins re-signing.
If we already have a wink/nod with Cousins or see a strong bond with AD forming/indifference to Jrue's presence, then Jrue can walk if he demands anything at or over 15 million to me. No need to overspend for a player that long-term will do more harm to our ability to move into the elite category then help with an anchor contract.
If Cousins seems to be inconclusive I tread lightly in letting Jrue walk, unless I am confident in someone like Patty Mills coming or Milos Teodosic coming and transitioning comfortably to the NBA.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 6:39 am to Corporal Beavis
quote:
we won't be using our towers as effectively as possible
quote:
hire a coach that is more suitable to our roster
now i need more detail here.
how should they use the twin towers? what are they not doing schematically that you see as a big whiff?
what coach is more suitable? why?
Posted on 5/3/17 at 7:58 am to corndeaux
quote:
how should they use the twin towers?
The 5/4 Pick and Roll is nasty, but confirmation bias will tell people Cousins does nothing but shoot 3s or Kamikaze runs from the 3 point line.
quote:
what are they not doing schematically that you see as a big whiff?
I think it's kind of telling that Crawford almost immediately became one of the teams better playmakers from the moment he suited up. Gentry's system needs smarter/more dynamic players. The one thing Gentry has done since day 1 is expose the roster's flaws when it comes to BBIQ and this being a playoff caliber roster.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:04 am to TigerinATL
Correct. Jrue is a fine player but he just doesn't see the game the way a true orchestrator needs to. And some guys don't see it that way but they are so dynamic that they cause so much chaos in the defense that multiple options are open and they are bound to see one. Jrue isn't that way either
If you put a Wall in his place it would be one of the most dynamic offenses ever. Even a healthy Lin would provide more in a Gentry system than Holiday at point guard.
If you pay Holiday all that money, it will be because of his defense, his secondary ball handling ability, and those rare games where he gets hot from deep and can put up 25-30. In a vacuum, that is worth 14-17 million in this CBA but I will go a little higher because you can go over the cap to do it.
If you put a Wall in his place it would be one of the most dynamic offenses ever. Even a healthy Lin would provide more in a Gentry system than Holiday at point guard.
If you pay Holiday all that money, it will be because of his defense, his secondary ball handling ability, and those rare games where he gets hot from deep and can put up 25-30. In a vacuum, that is worth 14-17 million in this CBA but I will go a little higher because you can go over the cap to do it.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:13 am to Crewz
In an ideal world, we somehow pull off a trade for a PG that can run the show, and resign Jrue. I think he would be a great 2 guard for us. He's shown he can guard every position on the court, and that's just not something you find everyday.
I do not want to resign him to be our future PG. I do not want to resign him to anything over $20M. But if we can get a trade for a legit PG, then i'd be willing to pay him up to about $23M to keep him at that point.
Worst case scenario is we don't sign or trade for a PG, and resign jrue to $25M. I think that is worst than him walking.
I do not want to resign him to be our future PG. I do not want to resign him to anything over $20M. But if we can get a trade for a legit PG, then i'd be willing to pay him up to about $23M to keep him at that point.
Worst case scenario is we don't sign or trade for a PG, and resign jrue to $25M. I think that is worst than him walking.
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:13 am to Crewz
quote:
In a vacuum, that is worth 14-17 million in this CBA but I will go a little higher because you can go over the cap to do it.
Yup
Posted on 5/3/17 at 10:15 am to Crewz
quote:
In a vacuum, that is worth 14-17 million in this CBA
You feel like Jrue is valued equally to Mozgov, Deng, Biyombo, Crabbe, Anderson, Turner, Fournier, and Bazemore? These are the free agents that were signed in that range last offseason.
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