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Posted on 12/9/25 at 10:23 pm to Broski
quote:
There's literally zero chance that the Hawks turn the trade down if it is top 5 protected. Because getting the 6th-10th pick is still good value for turning over a mid-1st pick.
I like how you tried to sneak this in. Unfortunately there is no nba draft valuation chart to gauge pick values against one another. If you look at previous trade ups, it's hard to find similar value. We didn't just leap one or two spots. We jumped from out of the top 20 to inside the top 15. Atlanta knew that Queen was there to pick. They had no way of knowing that Newell would slide to them.
You might point to the most famous Hawks draft trade ever, when they traded back from #3 to #5 for a top -5 protected pick the next year. So they ended up losing Doncic for Young and Reddish. That move has followed the franchise for kind of a long time. You can kind of see where they might be skittish making those type of deals again. They would demand greater value..
Posted on 12/9/25 at 10:41 pm to brmark70816
Bryson Graham was the "general manager" of the Pels for 10 frickin years
He gets hired by the Hawks one week before the draft..
Guy knows we love Queen. I hope to all that's holy that he held our asses over barrel after we picked Fears to try and get Queen. Id hate to hear that Dumars just threw them the farm to save time ...
He gets hired by the Hawks one week before the draft..
Guy knows we love Queen. I hope to all that's holy that he held our asses over barrel after we picked Fears to try and get Queen. Id hate to hear that Dumars just threw them the farm to save time ...
Posted on 12/9/25 at 11:14 pm to jmcwhrter
We know because sources inside the Atlanta FO made it clear they had to keep asking to make sure they were hearing correctly, that Dumars and Weaver were, in fact, offering the pick next year with ZERO protections.
LINK
I think we can all agree that it was a terrible trade, that is slightly more bearable now, since Queen has played at a high level. Doesn't excuse the downright malpractice by Dumars and Weaver.
quote:
One Eastern executive with knowledge of how the conversation went from Atlanta’s perspective described a perplexing scene. When one Pelicans executive made the call to Atlanta, the Hawks couldn’t believe what was actually being offered. Atlanta asked for clarification multiple times to confirm the unprotected pick was indeed part of the deal. It got to the point where Hawks General Manager, Onsi Saleh, called Joe Dumars directly to confirm for himself. The Hawks waited nervously for Dumars to confirm, hoping he would not realize what was going on and walk the trade back. But the Pelicans persisted and the Hawks got their steal.
LINK
I think we can all agree that it was a terrible trade, that is slightly more bearable now, since Queen has played at a high level. Doesn't excuse the downright malpractice by Dumars and Weaver.
Posted on 12/10/25 at 2:44 am to Broski
People are way too in their feelings over this, on both sides. Some relevant variables to at least consider:
-If Queen returns to Maryland for his sophomore year and comes out in the 2026 draft, where would he have been taken?
-If the Pelicans projected that both their own and the Pacer's 2026 draft picks would be mid-first rounders, would that still have been an overpay to draft Queen?
-Reporting indicates the Hawks "couldn't believe" they were being offered an unprotected first round pick by Pels. It does not indicate if they would have accepted a protected first round pick to make the deal or what level of protection, if any, might have been acceptable to them. Unknown.
-If Queen turns out to be correct that he is going to be "better than all those guys" at the top of the 2026 draft, then why wasn't the move justified? It's a risk, but isn't it also a risk to pass on drafting him?
It almost seems like the old joke about the scientist who says "sure, it worked in the real world, but how does it work in theory?" It's a fetishizing of process over actual results. Sure, it could turn out to be the stupidest move ever. But you have no way of knowing that yet and it seems a bit silly to get worked up about it so far in advance.
-If Queen returns to Maryland for his sophomore year and comes out in the 2026 draft, where would he have been taken?
-If the Pelicans projected that both their own and the Pacer's 2026 draft picks would be mid-first rounders, would that still have been an overpay to draft Queen?
-Reporting indicates the Hawks "couldn't believe" they were being offered an unprotected first round pick by Pels. It does not indicate if they would have accepted a protected first round pick to make the deal or what level of protection, if any, might have been acceptable to them. Unknown.
-If Queen turns out to be correct that he is going to be "better than all those guys" at the top of the 2026 draft, then why wasn't the move justified? It's a risk, but isn't it also a risk to pass on drafting him?
It almost seems like the old joke about the scientist who says "sure, it worked in the real world, but how does it work in theory?" It's a fetishizing of process over actual results. Sure, it could turn out to be the stupidest move ever. But you have no way of knowing that yet and it seems a bit silly to get worked up about it so far in advance.
This post was edited on 12/10/25 at 2:47 am
Posted on 12/10/25 at 7:27 am to RUFshreve
quote:
We know because sources inside the Atlanta FO made it clear they had to keep asking to make sure they were hearing correctly, that Dumars and Weaver were, in fact, offering the pick next year with ZERO protections.
I have never believed this story. It does not make any sense logistically. Supposedly we offered several teams the same trade, including Chicago at 12, who took a guy that played a total of 6 minutes his entire rookie season (he's out for the year now). But they all turned us down. Yet they get no grief for passing?
So, the Hawks are on the clock, with 5 minutes to make the selection. We are on the phone with them as soon as Chicago makes the pick. They keep asking for details, do not believe them, so they hang up and call Dumars instead, to confirm. They have a conversation, work out the details, then call in the trade? How is there enough time for all of that?
Did the guy who called not have the authority to make the trade? If it's such a no brainer, why hesitate?
quote:
The Hawks waited nervously for Dumars to confirm, hoping he would not realize what was going on and walk the trade back. But the Pelicans persisted and the Hawks got their steal.
How can we walk it back after we made the offer? Here is the entire draft (LINK The trade went through right away and was listed as an unprotected pick. How could we change it after the fact?
Posted on 12/10/25 at 9:00 am to brmark70816
quote:
But they all turned us down. Yet they get no grief for passing
One national guy did blast a few teams before the Hawks for not taking the deal. He said theyd regret it cine draft time next year.
Im sure Chicago is regretting not taking it now.
Posted on 12/10/25 at 9:22 am to Broski
quote:
It still is a fireable that Dumars traded for the 13th overall pick by sending over a pick that will overwhelming likely have the best odds to be the 1st overall pick.
A lot if you patting Dumars on the back are also leaving out the fact Indy is currently #5.
If they don’t hit the lottery, very good chance, Dumars gave away two top 5-6 picks. Either way, he loss tremendous value on the pick trading it unnecessarily early. That’s not a move a good gm makes.
This post was edited on 12/10/25 at 9:24 am
Posted on 12/10/25 at 9:25 am to Townedrunkard
How about the Blazers? They traded #11 for #16 and only got a future Magic 1st pick (2028) and two seconds. It looks they didn't want to trade back too far (like #23). So they turned us down too.
See how these stories from the Hawks aren't making as much sense now?
See how these stories from the Hawks aren't making as much sense now?
Posted on 12/10/25 at 10:09 am to brmark70816
quote:
How about the Blazers? They traded #11 for #16 and only got a future Magic 1st pick (2028) and two seconds. It looks they didn't want to trade back too far (like #23). So they turned us down too. See how these stories from the Hawks aren't making as much sense now?
Or the Clippers. Didn’t they trade their pick to the Thunder next year? Not sure if protected or not but Presti has built a monster.
https://thunderousintentions.com/paul-george-is-gift-that-keeps-on-giving-for-thunder
This post was edited on 12/10/25 at 10:10 am
Posted on 12/10/25 at 10:22 am to Broski
quote:
I want to stop seeing posts about Dumars being "vindicated" for making the Queen trade.
It's not the gotcha people think it is.
You have to understand a lot of these people simply can't get it that how good Queen is does not change how inept this trade was. How good Queen is can mitigate the effects of the trade, but it doesn't change at all how terrible it was. He offered initially way more than he had to to get Atlanta to trade the pick. The reason every single NBA writer and pundit who discussed the trade destroyed Dumars for doing it, was because everyone knew Atlanta would have agreed to a trade that included a Top 5 (and likely a Top 10) protection on the pick. Dumars didn't even ask for it, let alone be turned down asking for it. And yes, it should be a fireable offense.
Posted on 12/10/25 at 10:31 am to Hester Carries
it was an awful trade and will always be an awful trade looking at the upcoming draft class
with that said, Queen at least salvages that bad decision and no guarantee the Pels would have hit on the right pick in 26 draft anyway and since the lottery is rigged I doubt the NBA would have given the Pels the pick anyway
with that said, Queen at least salvages that bad decision and no guarantee the Pels would have hit on the right pick in 26 draft anyway and since the lottery is rigged I doubt the NBA would have given the Pels the pick anyway
Posted on 12/10/25 at 10:45 am to LSUgrad88
quote:
, was because everyone knew Atlanta would have agreed to a trade that included a Top 5 (and likely a Top 10) protection on the pick.
Prove it.
Posted on 12/10/25 at 11:30 am to brmark70816
quote:
Prove it.
There's nothing to prove.
Teams that know they aren't good don't trade away unprotected 1sts, and despite the fact that even if Dumars thought we'd be good/ok, he 100% knew that we were 1 highly likely injury away from being a bad team.
The only way a team trades unprotected picks is if they are getting back a sure thing, a proven player, or they know they are a playoff caliber team. Neither of those happened here.
If ATL was unwilling to accept a top 4 protected pick, then you simply don't do the trade. It's like the guy said comparing the decision to go all in with 8/deuce, can you win the hand? sure, but it's stupid to go all in with that crap.
Posted on 12/10/25 at 11:51 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Teams that know they aren't good don't trade away unprotected 1sts,
Yeah exactly.
Next years pick could be as good as Derik Queen!
Wait…..
Posted on 12/10/25 at 12:35 pm to Adam Banks
quote:
Next years pick could be as good as Derik Queen!
Wait…..
It just amazes me how people can't grasp the concept of the stupidity of the trade and how it has absolutely nothing to do with how good or bad Derrick Queen is or will be.
And I was one of the few that loved the trade on draft night (mostly b/c i just assumed the reporting of the unprotected pick was a typo or something).
Posted on 12/10/25 at 12:41 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
It just amazes me how people can't grasp the concept of the stupidity of the trade
It’s stupid if Queen doesn’t play at the level of a good lottery pick.
It’s entirely unknown and probably unlikely that the hawks accept the deal with protections on the pick. Others didn’t accept the deal even WITHOUT protections. At which point we get trash at the other spot and cross our fingers that THIS time we will get the lotto pick right
He IS playing at the level of a good lottery pick.
You value hope and fantasy over reality.
That pick COULD BE Lebron.
Or it could be Sam Bowie or Anthony Bennett.
This post was edited on 12/10/25 at 12:43 pm
Posted on 12/10/25 at 1:28 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
ATL was unwilling to accept a top 4 protected pick, then you simply don't do the trade. It's like the guy said comparing the decision to go all in with 8/deuce, can you win the hand? sure, but it's stupid to go all in with that crap.
None of what you said supports that Atlanta would have taken a lesser deal. It's all conjecture and claims based on assumptions. You are just saying we shouldn't have done the deal, which doesn't factor in the debate at all.
We overpaid. But an over pay might have been the only offer they accept. What we do know is that several teams passed on that same deal (fall back to #23 and next year unprotected). If it was so egregious, why did 3-4 other teams pass?
Posted on 12/10/25 at 1:40 pm to Broski
t least top 3
Which would make it better
Which would make it better
Posted on 12/10/25 at 2:36 pm to brmark70816
quote:
None of what you said supports that Atlanta would have taken a lesser deal.
I didn't say they would have (even though I do think they would have).
quote:
You are just saying we shouldn't have done the deal, which doesn't factor in the debate at all.
It doesn't? tell me what we're allowed to debate then.
quote:
We overpaid. But an over pay might have been the only offer they accept
You god damn right we overpaid.
YOU DON'T MAKE THAT OFFER WHEN YOU'RE THE PELICANS KNOWING IT'S EXTREMELY LIKELY YOU AREN'T MAKING THE PLAYOFFS!
quote:
What we do know is that several teams passed on that same deal (fall back to #23 and next year unprotected)
Oh so you're allowed to say this like it's a fact, but it's all bullshite when anyone talks about how shocked ATL was for double and triple checking our ridiculous offer?
It was a stupid fricking trade. Always will be, and has absolutely nothign to do with Derik Queen.
Let me help you, and the rest of you morons trying to defend it.
In 2022, the #13 pick was traded twice on draft night.
First trade:
Knicks gave up this to Charlotte for #13:
2023 1st round pick (lottery protected — from New York, via Denver)
2023 2nd from pick (from New York)
2023 2nd round pick (from New York, via Utah)
2023 2nd round pick (from New York via Dallas or Miami)
2024 2nd round pick (from New York)
Then Detroit gave up this to NYK for that same #13 pick:
2023 1st round pick (lottery protected —from Detroit)
2025 1st round pick (lottery protected — from Detroit, via Portland)
To give you dumbasses another example, in the 2021 draft, OKC traded away #16 (SENGUN) for two very heavily protected 1st round picks. Here's the protections on those two 1sts:
Protected Wizards first: 2023 (top 12), 2024 (top 10), 2026 (top 8). This pick won't convey more than likely and will end up being 2 2nd round picks.
Protected Detroit first: 2022 (top 16), 2023 (top 18), 2024 (top 18), 2025 (top 13), 2026 (top 11) and 2027 (top 9).
Funny enough OKC used this protected pick in 2022 to trade for the #11 pick Ousmane Dieng. They traded 3 heavily protected future 1sts (Detroit, Wiz, Denver) to NYK.
But sure, go ahead and keep telling yourself and the other idiots defending this trade that we had to send a unprotected 1st to make this trade happen.
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