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Message
re: NBA Offseason officially kicks off, Ingram’s days in NOLA coming to an end per Stein
Posted on 8/14/24 at 3:07 pm to Dantheman504
Posted on 8/14/24 at 3:07 pm to Dantheman504
quote:Wait, so you think it's a bullshite philosophy to use multiple years worth of data because of 2 good games?
So "he is what he is" even thought he just had the (2) best 3pt games of his 8 year career on a "rough year"?
If I told you Russ Westbrook has a chip on his shoulder and is going to be a good 3pt shooter this coming season because he shot 64% from 3 in 3 of his best 3pt shooting games next season, would you agree with me?
Russ had a couple good shooting games. Russ obviously always has a chip on his shoulder. That's your argument for why BI will be fine this season from 3, so does that only apply to BI "just cause?"
quote:How is that going to help when he's the 3rd option and getting lower usage than ever before? If he does what you think he'll do and try to prove he's the #1 option and best player, it's going to be a disaster for this team.
And you don't think BI will have a chip on his shoulder after this offseason?
quote:You agreed with my assertion on BI as a player last season, so why do you say I'm being ignorant and you also agree with me?
If its about BI as a player then you are just being ignorant IMO.
quote:
whatever long arse BS you are trying to say.
Dan: You think CJ is a God who can do no wrong
Me: BI was slightly better than CJ last season
Dan: You think BI was terrible last season
You think that makes sense?
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 3:10 pm
2
Posted on 8/14/24 at 3:09 pm to Dantheman504
quote:why would this be the quesiton in relation to BI and shooting 3s.
And what consistency have we had?
The question is, "What has BI done consistently with respect to getting up 3s?"
Go ahead, you can answer it...
quote:You're doing the thing again where you say some things, then magically attribute them to me saying them then reply telling me to "GTFO here" for saying the thing I never said and only you said.
Both of our best players healthy?
A starting PG?
A coach worth a shite?
A locker room leader with a backbone?
Gtfo here.
quote:Talking about things I never said again, you've now done that about 10 times just today in this thread. That may be a record.
I guess those are all BI's fault, He's the reason we aren't a contender. Lol.
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 3:11 pm
Posted on 8/14/24 at 3:10 pm to shel311
BI and Zion played near 80% of games last year, never was guarded by best defenders in any. Obvious you don’t understand game planning and I like CJ.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 3:13 pm to Pistol44
quote:I gave you examples of a shite ton of times CJ was our #1 or #2 option, so you changed the parameters from your original assertion then claim my reply to your first statement shows I don't understand something because you changed your statement....what?
BI and Zion played near 80% of games last year, never was guarded by best defenders in any. Obvious you don’t understand game planning and I like CJ.
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 3:15 pm
Posted on 8/14/24 at 3:29 pm to shel311
quote:
Well that's certainly not true, given the amount of games Zion and BI have missed since CJ joined the team. That's 100% clearly incorrect, wondering if you will reply to concede that?
i'm with you on that. And as i pointed out with his 30 point games, all but one of them was with them both, so he obviously was the #1 or #2 guy in those games he went off in.
quote:
The year we traded for CJ he played every single games as the #1 or #2 option and half those games as the #1 option, so he very obviously had the opponent's best or 2nd best defender on him. Check his stations.
And his shot chart reflected that b/c there were more mid range shots, which i've pointed out before.
It changed organically this year b/c Zion and BI played more games. The games where they didn't play you saw him take more mid range shots again.
CJ is a great #3 guy. It's b/c he's a bordeline #2 guy, so when he's getting the 2nd best perimeter defender, sometimes the 3rd, and all of the defenses attention is on Zion and BI, the game gets a lot easier for him. Same with Trey.
quote:
What's your alternative? Give him the money he wants? How will that work out trying to trade him?
a max? no
4/$175-$185, sure, and I doubt other teams see that as a negative next year when he's making 25% of the cap and that % goes down over the next 3 years. He's still a fringe all-star caliber player even when he's not peforming well. We don't have to pretend he's terrible.
I really think what we are doing to start this season is so stupid.
Regardless of who starts or sits, too many guys are going to be taking a back seat and will be out of rythem on how this team should perform.
You've got a guy who should be scoring 27+, another who should be in the 22ppg range, and 3 more all capable of being 20ppg guys, and that right there isn't possible to achieve. I want to see what BI can do off ball, but then that means less playing time for CJ or Trey or Herb, and that's stupid.
You can't just trade BI for nothing, but this is going to be a shite show to start the year.
My only hope is that the Murray/Herb/BI/Trey/Zion lineup is something special to build around.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 4:12 pm to shel311
No, I said you don’t understand game planning. BI and Zion are the focus of their primary defender with secondary and often tertiary support. CJ is always 1 on 1 coverage and not the best defenders. It’s ok, but now you know. This is why you can’t properly evaluate simply based on statistics.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 4:26 pm to Pistol44
quote:You said I don' understand game planning because I disagreed with your assertion that CJ has never been the opposing team's #1 or #2 option and never had the 1st or 2nd defender guarding him.
No, I said you don’t understand game planning. BI and Zion are the focus of their primary defender with secondary and often tertiary support.
You were wrong, so how can that response prove me wrong when CJ absolutely has been the #1 or 2 options quite a bit since he got here?
quote:You're wrong.
CJ is always 1 on 1 coverage and not the best defenders. It’s ok, but now you know.
quote:You're still wrong
This is why you can’t properly evaluate simply based on statistics.
CJ 1000000% was our #1 or 2 option for quite a few games since he got here, and was 1000000% guarded by other teams best or 2nd best defenders for quite a few games since he got here.
It's pretty crazy how confident you are in something that is so simply incorrect.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 4:27 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
I really think what we are doing to start this season is so stupid.
quote:Yep
You can't just trade BI for nothing, but this is going to be a shite show to start the year.
We're in a situation where there is zero chance to maximize all of our best players and make them the best player they can be. We simply have no way to do that.
That's not a situation you want to be in.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 4:32 pm to shel311
quote:
Russ had a couple good shooting games. Russ obviously always has a chip on his shoulder. That's your argument for why BI will be fine this season
Wow this is ridiculously naive.
BI is expecting to get a 50mil contract. He probably won't get it because he chose not to shoot 3's. The few games that he did shoot 3's was exactly what we needed. There's a chance no teams want to give him that contract because of his shot selection.
You actually don't think this will motivate BI? It is not a question of "if" he can shoot 7-11 3pt. We know he can.
There literally isn't a more appropriate time for him to actually become that player or be motivated to do so.
Whether you think he will or not is a different conversation.
You are saying "BI won't be that player" and im saying "If there's ever a time for BI to become that player its now"
So he is capable and now would be the most appropriate time. Those are FACTS.
Either of our personal opinions past that are irrelevant.
I'm not even saying he will, I'm saying if there's ever the time its now.
Can you acknowledge that jackass?
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 4:37 pm
Posted on 8/14/24 at 4:42 pm to brmark70816
Holy shite you're stupid. Just stfy already.
Posted on 8/14/24 at 4:42 pm to shel311
OK, I’ll indulge. First, #1 or #2 option when BI or Zion are out is a nothing burger. Just who you look to be your primary offensive threats, says nada about how the opposition reacts. By that logic, if Lebron and AD are out you still game plan and tilt your defense for Reeves or DLO as they’re now the defacto #1/2 options. No, thats not how its ever worked. Secondly, only Husky and Slim have had the pressure of being game planned against on a consistent basis. To imply you can simply slot player Cs. stats into player A or B’s role with minimal friction is daft. Doubling down and not concerned about equitable compensation (addition by subtraction … lol) is even more mindless.
This post was edited on 8/14/24 at 4:43 pm
Posted on 8/14/24 at 5:33 pm to TigerBait2008
quote:
Holy shite you're stupid. Just stfy already
Wow, I just looked at your posts and contributions to this fine site/board. You need a hug or something. Seriously, that's some pent up anger there. Are you ok?
BTW, STFY? Umm "shoe that fits you"?
Posted on 8/15/24 at 8:55 am to Dantheman504
quote:That was literally the point
Wow this is ridiculously naive.
I was saying something dumb to prove your point was dumb. Much like your "Karlo has more value than BI" silliness.
Funny that you completely missed the point on that one.
quote:You've now said BI is going to do 2 completely different things. You've said he's motivated to become the player we need him to be, AND you've said his motivation will be to be the best player on the team.
You are saying "BI won't be that player" and im saying "If there's ever a time for BI to become that player its now"
Those are 2 distinctly different things.
quote:How do you function in real life when you can't have a simple disagreement with someone without losing your mind?
Can you acknowledge that jackass?
Posted on 8/15/24 at 8:59 am to Pistol44
quote:Like I just said above, this is a completely different argument than the one you made before.
First, #1 or #2 option when BI or Zion are out is a nothing burger.
You previously said other opponent's NEVER used their #1 or #2 defender to guard CJ. Now you're saying when CJ is the #1 or #2 option, teams are basically not worried about CJ. Again, 2 entirely different arguments.
quote:That's exactly how it works, what are you talking about?
By that logic, if Lebron and AD are out you still game plan and tilt your defense for Reeves or DLO as they’re now the defacto #1/2 options. No, thats not how its ever worked
So your argument is that when we played OKC in the playoffs last season without Zion, OKC did NOT adjust to make CJ their 2nd most important assignment to cover on defense? Please stop saying I don't understand game planning while also telling me OKC did not game play for CJ in the playoffs last year. Seriously, please don't do that, it's best for you to stop repeating that. It's very very very very wrong, and odd that you're as confident s you are in being 1 billion percent wrong.
This is crazy
Posted on 8/15/24 at 9:00 am to shel311
I wish this thread would die
Posted on 8/15/24 at 9:29 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:
I wish this thread would die
Posted on 8/15/24 at 9:31 am to shel311
quote:
Dan: You think CJ is a God who can do no wrong
Me: BI was slightly better than CJ last season
Dan: You think BI was terrible last season
You think that makes sense?
In fairness, this thread is full of mental gymnastics from the addition-by-subtraction crowd....
Posted on 8/15/24 at 9:31 am to whatiknowsofar
I wonder who has the power around here to anchor a thread if they want to
Posted on 8/15/24 at 10:02 am to shel311
OK, think about it this way. Coaches have defensive principles. Some players force coaches to hedge. Hedging requires specific film study and implementation time which coaches would rather spend on other aspects of the game but deem necessary. I am not here to bash CJ, as he is a fine player. However, coaches are not hedging with CJ with either BI or Zion on the floor and certainly not with both on the floor. The benefit for CJ is that he gets a lot of uncontested looks. This is the gravity of BI and Zion and has been the majority of offensive focus on this board.
Further, without BI and Zion on the floor coaches are not going to hedge just because CJ is now the offensive focus, or as you say option #1 or #2. No, they'll play straight up, because the odds are (prior history) that he won't hurt you in ways that are significantly game-altering (gravity). My defense is back in principle sets (not giving up a bunch of wide-open looks and rim cuts for easy buckets) ... everything is contested. Again, not bashing CJ but he's proven that he's not that type of playmaker, for coaches to make that adjustment.
Sorry WhatIKnowSoFar ....
Further, without BI and Zion on the floor coaches are not going to hedge just because CJ is now the offensive focus, or as you say option #1 or #2. No, they'll play straight up, because the odds are (prior history) that he won't hurt you in ways that are significantly game-altering (gravity). My defense is back in principle sets (not giving up a bunch of wide-open looks and rim cuts for easy buckets) ... everything is contested. Again, not bashing CJ but he's proven that he's not that type of playmaker, for coaches to make that adjustment.
Sorry WhatIKnowSoFar ....
This post was edited on 8/15/24 at 10:04 am
Posted on 8/15/24 at 10:21 am to Galactic Inquisitor
quote:
In fairness, this thread is full of mental gymnastics from the addition-by-subtraction crowd....
No gymnastics from me. This is very simple, Brandon Ingram should not be in the future plans of this team. The reasons are obvious and have been. Spending any more time and resources on making it work is simply bad business. We also have the worst center situation in the entire NBA. It is a gaping hole that has put a lower ceiling on our team. Brandon Ingram needs to be moved and we need some kind of help in return to at least approach league average at the center position.
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