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Message
re: Honest Zion talk for Emotional Intelligent Folks
Posted on 1/18/21 at 9:55 pm to southdowns84
Posted on 1/18/21 at 9:55 pm to southdowns84
His listed weight was the same in college as it is in the NBA.
1
Posted on 1/18/21 at 10:06 pm to supe12sta12z
quote:
His listed weight was the same in college as it is in the NBA.
Well I guess fvck me then.
Honestly, I didn’t know that so thanks for the heads up. With that said, I’m still skeptical he actually weighs the same but I won’t continue to argue that point.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 11:22 pm to Bronc
Your comps just don’t hold water.
LeBron and Giannis came into the league unfinished athletically. Springy, gangly teens waiting to grow into men, but already dominating men. Both had elite measurable for their position with regard to wingspan and height. AD was similar.
Right now, Zion is an undersized (length) 4 at a position that demands shooting now. There is no frame left to grow into. He is physically mature.
His footwork is unrefined. His shot is nonexistent. And though he has raw power, he simply doesn’t have the height and length measurables to dominate without sustained effort and energy as the people you’re comparing him to.
To not adjust his ceiling as “best player in the league” would be egregious given what we’ve seen.
Young lebron was a streaky shooter who could get really hot from 3 but was inconsistent. But he already came in as one of the best passers in the league game 1. He used to be built closer to a tall Kobe. Then he turned into a unit.
Young Giannis was so athletic but his body changed and grew stronger and stronger. His handle even tighter. If you take someone as tall and coordinated as Giannis and Max them out of course they rule the league.
Young AD hit 18 footers effortlessly. It was a foregone conclusion that he’d eventually be able to push it out to the 3. Also his wingspan was 7’4.
Even Blake Griffin had better measurables and was showing more at this stage in his career, being a willing passer and having the length to finish over anyone and everyone.
Zion’s wingspan is 6’10. That means AD can jump half a foot lower than him and still block his shot- which is what we saw multiple times in the lakers game. This wouldn’t be a problem except Zion’s lack of shooting means they play the same position and AD can just wait for him in the paint.
Zion needs every bit of his jumping ability to finish over and around taller players.
And his power would give him a lot more options if he wasn’t afraid of getting fouled.
In a league where shooting is king and the ball whips around the perimeter for the most efficient 3 ball, it is imperative Zion be able to guard 3-5. Right now he can’t guard any one of those positions.
I don’t know what part of Zion’s brute force driving game leads to him being the games best.
I think Zion will be a multi time all star. But unless he turns into that monster point SF who can switch out onto guards and then body up Cs, who can catch the ball on a break and go coast to coast, and either dunk or pull up on a dime, he ll remain a one dimensional player who you can pack the paint to stop at any time. Shaq without the size. Zbo without the post moves. Barkley without the shooting. Malone without the baseline jumper and fts. In short, a top 20 player who is infinitely game plannable.
LeBron and Giannis came into the league unfinished athletically. Springy, gangly teens waiting to grow into men, but already dominating men. Both had elite measurable for their position with regard to wingspan and height. AD was similar.
Right now, Zion is an undersized (length) 4 at a position that demands shooting now. There is no frame left to grow into. He is physically mature.
His footwork is unrefined. His shot is nonexistent. And though he has raw power, he simply doesn’t have the height and length measurables to dominate without sustained effort and energy as the people you’re comparing him to.
To not adjust his ceiling as “best player in the league” would be egregious given what we’ve seen.
Young lebron was a streaky shooter who could get really hot from 3 but was inconsistent. But he already came in as one of the best passers in the league game 1. He used to be built closer to a tall Kobe. Then he turned into a unit.
Young Giannis was so athletic but his body changed and grew stronger and stronger. His handle even tighter. If you take someone as tall and coordinated as Giannis and Max them out of course they rule the league.
Young AD hit 18 footers effortlessly. It was a foregone conclusion that he’d eventually be able to push it out to the 3. Also his wingspan was 7’4.
Even Blake Griffin had better measurables and was showing more at this stage in his career, being a willing passer and having the length to finish over anyone and everyone.
Zion’s wingspan is 6’10. That means AD can jump half a foot lower than him and still block his shot- which is what we saw multiple times in the lakers game. This wouldn’t be a problem except Zion’s lack of shooting means they play the same position and AD can just wait for him in the paint.
Zion needs every bit of his jumping ability to finish over and around taller players.
And his power would give him a lot more options if he wasn’t afraid of getting fouled.
In a league where shooting is king and the ball whips around the perimeter for the most efficient 3 ball, it is imperative Zion be able to guard 3-5. Right now he can’t guard any one of those positions.
I don’t know what part of Zion’s brute force driving game leads to him being the games best.
I think Zion will be a multi time all star. But unless he turns into that monster point SF who can switch out onto guards and then body up Cs, who can catch the ball on a break and go coast to coast, and either dunk or pull up on a dime, he ll remain a one dimensional player who you can pack the paint to stop at any time. Shaq without the size. Zbo without the post moves. Barkley without the shooting. Malone without the baseline jumper and fts. In short, a top 20 player who is infinitely game plannable.
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 11:36 pm
Posted on 1/19/21 at 12:11 am to LSU Fan 90812
quote:
LeBron and Giannis came into the league unfinished athletically. Springy, gangly teens waiting to grow into men, but already dominating men. Both had elite measurable for their position with regard to wingspan and height. AD was similar.
And the same can be said of Zion given the injuries and less than ideal off season conditions to maximize his nutrition and conditioning. Nevertheless he is dominating men with years on him and in their prime, I mean just yesterday he was doing normal basketball stuff and taking out Kings players left and right from his freakish physical strength. As a just turned 20 year old, not even in peak condition. And the point of the comps was about how absurd it is to claim someone’s history can be written or adjusted so drastically 35 games in. Guys like Curry, KD, Giannis, and AD, all demonstrating less than Zion has to this point, went on to trend toward having hall of fame, MVP level careers. It’s absurdist logic coming from a place of irrationality and motivated reasoning. Nothing would support adjusting expectations based on the statistical output or skill level of a player 35 games into their career.
quote:
His footwork is unrefined. His shot is nonexistent. And though he has raw power, he simply doesn’t have the height and length measurables to dominate without sustained effort and energy as the people you’re comparing him to.
His footwork is better than guys like AD his first several years. And his productivity already has him in the stratosphere of guys like Shaq and AI and Lebron. So it’s just false that what he has can’t produce “it”
quote:
Young AD hit 18 footers effortlessly. It was a foregone conclusion that he’d eventually be able to push it out to the 3. Also his wingspan was 7’4.
Talk about rewriting history. AD came into the league with a broken jump shot and shooting 34% on jumpers and 26% on 16 footers. You know what fixed that? Working with Fred Vinson. You know who we have on the staff? A guy named Fred Vinson.
There’s no guarantee he doesn’t hit a wall on improving this aspect of his game, but that was true for AD and Lebron and Giannis. And since you mentioned AD and threes, this season is the fist time in his career he is actually trending toward being respectable from that distance. Before this season getting AD into a three was a success story and a surefire way to rank his efficiency.
quote:
Even Blake Griffin had better measurables and was showing more at this stage in his career,
I mean this is both misleading and not really true. Griffin came into the league with severe injury issues. His first season was at age 21, a year older than Zion, and in that period before his next major injury, Blake looked like a straight up freak of nature, considered to have one of the greatest rookie seasons of all time. Zion being a stronger Blake pre injury is a hall of fame level player if he doesn’t hit the sort of injury issues Blake does. As to not showing what Blake did, you’d have to actually flesh that out, just saying it doesn’t make it so.
quote:
Zion’s wingspan is 6’10. That means AD can jump half a foot lower than him and still block his shot- which is what we saw multiple times in the lakers game. This wouldn’t be a problem except Zion’s lack of shooting means they play the same position and AD can just wait for him in the paint.
I’ve said since day one his ceiling will be determined on how he grows his game and whether he can develop a reliable jumper and become a three level scorer while getting his FT’s into at minimum the high 70’s and ideally mid 80’s.
The thing is, declaring him incapable 35 games into his career is patently absurd. No one who had realistic expectations should be thinking he should have developed a jumper like that at this point, and to pull from your examples, neither Blake nor AD had either. Both were below average shooters that needed drastic reform on their shooting form to get to where they are now.
quote:
I think Zion will be a multi time all star. But unless he turns into that monster point SF who can switch out onto guards and then body up Cs, who can catch the ball on a break and go coast to coast, and either dunk or pull up on a dime, he ll remain a one dimensional player who you can pack the paint to stop at any time. Shaq without the size. Zbo without the post moves. Barkley without the shooting. Malone without the baseline jumper and fts. In short, a top 20 player who is infinitely game plannable.
There’s more than just one path to him becoming a MVP, best in the league type player, but you aren’t really saying anything new to me since from day one I said that Zion’s path to history requires developing various aspects of his game. Which others loved to pile on and tell me he didn’t actually need to do. But again, inferring him basically a a disappointment 35 games into his career is utterly asinine. All the complaints you mention were there 35 games ago, I’d love an explanation of how you magically thought they would be solved under the situation Zion is in and in this timeframe?
I certainly never did, since as I said in my other post, Zion’s progression was likely to be a multi year process, where he probably doesn’t start truly scratching his full potential til 23 to 24. If you think he was going to do it this soon, maybe like I told other people with unrealistic expectations, the problem isn’t Zion, it’s you
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 12:27 am
Posted on 1/19/21 at 12:41 am to southdowns84
quote:
You’re being disingenuous starting around 4:00 this afternoon.
Go back to the post where SFP posted the GIF of Zion making that block at Duke. That was a very narrow response focusing the conversation on something worthy of discussion.
Narrow response? It’s a series of “throw shite against the wall” criticisms that routinely contradict one another and you finding one of them you agreed with and creating this weird head cannon despite that specific criticism being addressed multiple times now by me and others.
If you actually have a counter or something to add to those responses have at it, otherwise this shite is tired and running it’s course.
Zion’s career arc is not written by him being able to replicate some YouTube highlight at Duke. His career is going to be written by how he develops out his game, how healthy he can stay, if he can be a three level scorer, if he can be a great two way player, and if he can maintain his already historic trajectory. 35 games under less than ideal circumstance that multiple people have fleshed in detail hasn’t changed that, especially when the most recent one throws a ton of cold water on the more egregious proclamations like some crippling permanent reduction to his athleticism.
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 12:45 am
Posted on 1/19/21 at 12:49 am to Bronc
I’ll give it to him. He played his best game as a Pel last night. Effort was there. Intensity was there. Best athlete on the court for 4 quarters.
He still absolutely quit on a play with just over a minute left that cut the lead from 5 to 3, which is inexcusable. Maybe 35 minutes is a bit much?
Hopefully that effort we saw is the trend moving forward, because it hasn’t been there the majority of the season for whatever reason.
He still absolutely quit on a play with just over a minute left that cut the lead from 5 to 3, which is inexcusable. Maybe 35 minutes is a bit much?
Hopefully that effort we saw is the trend moving forward, because it hasn’t been there the majority of the season for whatever reason.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 3:22 am to TotesMcGotes
He didn’t quit though.
He overcommitted on help defense toward Hield off a Holmes screen, in an attempt to help out Walker who got slowed up on the screen, Hield hit Holmes with a pass and Zion shot out to try and push Holmes into Adams, who was the next help defender, but the timing was off because Zion overcompensated for Walker off the screen, so Holmes was able to drive to the hoop before Zion could recover and before Adams could get into ideal help position at the basket.
Zion overplayed the possession on defense to help Walker but he didn’t quit shite. This wasn’t lack of effort, it was over committing his reaction off the right reads that created an avalanche effect that led to a score.
This is honestly a perfect example of what I talked about earlier where people misperceive actions on defense as lack of effort which are really just instances where Zion overthinks and then over or under reacts in his read and react process. And as Adams said, these are simply things that take time for the vast majority of young guys to execute consistently. A season or two from now you would expect to see Zion help off the screen but not over commit to Hield like he did, playing it in a way where he could either close out on the pull up or shift over toward the dump off pass and then better recover and slow down or deny Holmes that driving lane. He over anticipated Hield pulling up and it cost him the ability to recover and clog up the driving lane.
I’m sure the next attempt to slam Zion will be, “well why didn’t he just foul him” and the obvious answer is that if Zion rightfully read his scouting report, Holmes is an 85% FT shooter coming into the game, so if you lose your man it is more statistically wise to release him to the help defender(one of the best in the league) on the hope of denying the score as opposed to committing the foul where the math tells you he will hit both.
It’s a lesson learned for Zion on the reacts he makes off reads, not some scar on his motor
He overcommitted on help defense toward Hield off a Holmes screen, in an attempt to help out Walker who got slowed up on the screen, Hield hit Holmes with a pass and Zion shot out to try and push Holmes into Adams, who was the next help defender, but the timing was off because Zion overcompensated for Walker off the screen, so Holmes was able to drive to the hoop before Zion could recover and before Adams could get into ideal help position at the basket.
Zion overplayed the possession on defense to help Walker but he didn’t quit shite. This wasn’t lack of effort, it was over committing his reaction off the right reads that created an avalanche effect that led to a score.
This is honestly a perfect example of what I talked about earlier where people misperceive actions on defense as lack of effort which are really just instances where Zion overthinks and then over or under reacts in his read and react process. And as Adams said, these are simply things that take time for the vast majority of young guys to execute consistently. A season or two from now you would expect to see Zion help off the screen but not over commit to Hield like he did, playing it in a way where he could either close out on the pull up or shift over toward the dump off pass and then better recover and slow down or deny Holmes that driving lane. He over anticipated Hield pulling up and it cost him the ability to recover and clog up the driving lane.
I’m sure the next attempt to slam Zion will be, “well why didn’t he just foul him” and the obvious answer is that if Zion rightfully read his scouting report, Holmes is an 85% FT shooter coming into the game, so if you lose your man it is more statistically wise to release him to the help defender(one of the best in the league) on the hope of denying the score as opposed to committing the foul where the math tells you he will hit both.
It’s a lesson learned for Zion on the reacts he makes off reads, not some scar on his motor
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 4:00 am
Posted on 1/19/21 at 7:02 am to Bronc
quote:
Because I actually have realistic perspective.
But you literally said his ceiling is best player in the league, when it clearly is a good bit lower than that. So do you have a realistic perspective?
Posted on 1/19/21 at 7:06 am to Bronc
quote:
f you actually have a counter or something to add to those responses have at it, otherwise this shite is tired and running it’s course.
You’re absolutely right. This is exhausting. I don’t know why I tried.
No matter how many examples I put forth proving you took the argument off the rails, you’ll continue refusing to acknowledge it and will even go so far as to accuse me of doing the same things you’ve been guilty of doing.
I did actually have a counter argument. Almost the same one you failed to address head on for multiple pages. Once you were disciplined enough to focus on it and restrain from shite posting, we found common ground and moved on. Stop accusing me of not having an argument or pretending like it’s my fault for how long it took to reach a conclusion.
Unfortunately, I don’t have the energy to hold you hand like that all the time to keep us from having to suffer through a bunch of irrelevant non sequitur, straw men, and false dilemma counter claims that do nothing to advance the conversation.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 8:34 am to Bronc
quote:He legit gave a lazy jog over, and you're trying to make it seem like he "shot out" as hard as he could.
and Zion shot out to try and push Holmes into Adams
The play before that he also stood and watched a rebound while his man hustled and got it.
Again, just 2 plays from a game where he did have effort most of the way, but those 2 plays are indicative of the lack of hustle plays he's made over and over in games 1 through 11.
quote:Also helped that Zion didn't really try very hard to get in front of him. He could have at least affected the drive somewhat had he ran hard to the spot.
ut the timing was off because Zion overcompensated for Walker off the screen, so Holmes was able to drive to the hoop before Zion could recover and before Adams could get into ideal help position at the basket.
quote:If Zion gave max effort there, then we are completely fricked, and he'll never be nearly as good as we think. I say that in jest because he obviously didn't give effort there, everyone but you realizes that.
Zion overplayed the possession on defense to help Walker but he didn’t quit shite. This wasn’t lack of effort, it was over committing his reaction off the right reads that created an avalanche effect that led to a score.
quote:You're also claiming Zion "shot out" at him when he did the exact opposite.
This is honestly a perfect example of what I talked about earlier where people misperceive actions on defense as lack of effort which are really just instances where Zion overthinks and then over or under reacts in his read and react process.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 9:32 am to Bronc
You just typed out a novel so I went back and watched the play.
He 100% quit on the play and Holmes gets a wide open layup out of it. This isn’t debatable.
He 100% quit on the play and Holmes gets a wide open layup out of it. This isn’t debatable.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 9:38 am to TotesMcGotes
quote:Right, he did the complete opposite of "shot out" at his defender. There's no way you watch that play and think he "shot out" in any way, shape or form.
You just typed out a novel so I went back and watched the play.
He 100% quit on the play and Holmes gets a wide open layup out of it. This isn’t debatable.
So why would Bronc say that?
Posted on 1/19/21 at 9:41 am to shel311
Just to add, I remember the play vividly because the play before Zion stood and watched a rebound go off while his man hustled and got the ball. We were up 7, and Zion had 2 straight lack of hustle plays to cut it to 3.
I remember thinking in that moment how shitty it would be that Zion had a monster game, energy was there, then what if he had another lapse the next play and gave up a 3 and it was all wasted by 3 straight bad plays on D.
He did give up a look from 3 to his guy on the 3rd play, but he gave great effort on the closeout, and he was never really out of position in that I think his man was Bagley, and I'm sure we were happy to let Bagley take a contested 3 there, so even though his guy took the 3pt attempt, the effort/scheme was there, and you could easily live with the result knowing Zion made the right play.
I remember thinking in that moment how shitty it would be that Zion had a monster game, energy was there, then what if he had another lapse the next play and gave up a 3 and it was all wasted by 3 straight bad plays on D.
He did give up a look from 3 to his guy on the 3rd play, but he gave great effort on the closeout, and he was never really out of position in that I think his man was Bagley, and I'm sure we were happy to let Bagley take a contested 3 there, so even though his guy took the 3pt attempt, the effort/scheme was there, and you could easily live with the result knowing Zion made the right play.
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 9:41 am
Posted on 1/19/21 at 9:42 am to TotesMcGotes
Posted on 1/19/21 at 9:44 am to TotesMcGotes
quote:Nice, thanks for sharing.
Both plays start at 8:17
If you want to know why the team is so bad on D when Zion is in the game, look no further than the play at 1:25 when we were up 122-117. All he had to was hustle and he meets the offensive player and can get back into the play.
It was a lazy play, not really much of another way to look at it.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:14 am to shel311
quote:No, it was a player who was beaten on the drive not wanting to commit another foul.
It was a lazy play, not really much of another way to look at it.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:16 am to NOSHAU
quote:He was beat because he didn't hustle back.
No, it was a player who was beaten on the drive not wanting to commit another foul.
You can be beaten on a play and get back to a spot that allows you to make a positive impact.
Zion very easily could have gotten to a spot to contest that shot but he didn't hustle back and instead just slowly jogged back towards the player.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:22 am to shel311
Zion could possibly raise his arms or stick Bagley more but I don't think it was lack of effort.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:24 am to nicj4
quote:Let me put it this way.
but I don't think it was lack of effort.
Would you agree that if he gave more effort on that play, he could have made more of a positive impact on the result of that play?
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:26 am to TotesMcGotes
quote:
He 100% quit on the play and Holmes gets a wide open layup out of it. This isn’t debatable.
yeah the alternative is that he was confused on one of the most obvious rotations in NBA history. he's not mentally deficient so it had to be effort
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