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re: Honest Zion talk for Emotional Intelligent Folks
Posted on 1/18/21 at 5:50 pm to shel311
Posted on 1/18/21 at 5:50 pm to shel311
Defending your claim that someone hasn’t been demonstrating growth defensively and remains lacking in what you had defined(I would argue incorrectly) as effort as he literally does so in real time is the definition of looking a fool.
No matter how many times you attempt to look for dogpiles or attempt to gaslight it won’t actually change that.
No matter how many times you attempt to look for dogpiles or attempt to gaslight it won’t actually change that.
1
Posted on 1/18/21 at 5:53 pm to Bronc
quote:You also literally have admitted multiple times it was his best EFFORT of the season, so you literally have proven me correct in saying we hadn't seen him give max effort the 1st 11 games.
and remains lacking in what you had defined(I would argue incorrectly) as effort as he literally does so in real time
This is really not difficult shite, it's like I'm saying 2+2=4 and you're vehemently arguing against it.
You boxed yourself in and proved me right, it's ok to admit that. Denying it over and over just makes you look silly considering the receipts are in this thread over and over and over again.
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 5:54 pm
Posted on 1/18/21 at 5:56 pm to Bronc
quote:
Why you still running away from my challenge?
your games stuff? b/c it's a silly metric
quote:
Give me Giannis, Curry, KD, Kobe, and their first 35 games
i don't care because that's a stupid metric
quote:
Explain to me why Zion has uniquely eliminated himself from getting to that tier of player over time
the biggest issue long-term is his athleticism. even last night he didn't show Duke-Zion levels of it. we've waited over a year for its return and it isn't here yet
Zion is and always will be a guy almost completely reliant on his athleticism
if it's SVG and his offense (both limiting Zion on offense and causing him frustration on D leading to lack of effort on D), then he has a better chance. we just have to fire SVG immediately
if it's not, then...not good for that developmental arc
the fact that he hasn't been in proper shape for 1 game in 1.15 seasons of his career is a big deal, too
Posted on 1/18/21 at 5:59 pm to shel311
quote:
You also literally have admitted multiple times it was his best EFFORT of the season, so you literally have proven me correct in saying we hadn't seen him give max effort the 1st 11 games.
Post where I said that, I’ll wait.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 6:00 pm to SlowFlowPro
also just documenting in here that i'm testing something with the uber idiot realcarolina. i'm curious if he'll try to flip my obvious goading into me being emotional
Posted on 1/18/21 at 6:01 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i don't care because that's a stupid metric
You’re right, yet you want to use it to justify lowering Zion’s ceiling.
Maybe learn to be consistent?
If it’s absurd to write Giannis off as being incapable of being a historical MVP, best in the league player 35 games into his career or ten games into his second season, might want to rethink doing so with Zion, no?
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 6:02 pm
Posted on 1/18/21 at 6:02 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
this isn't some huge revelation. this is why older players in the draft are docked so highly for staying in college 3-4 years. their developmental arc has already been wasted playing so long outside of the NBA their peak will be lower
Zion’s NBA debut: 19 years, 6 months. LeBron’s NBA debut: 18 years, 10 months.
You’re making it out like zion is years behind LeBron. He’s not.
Going by LeBron’s first 35 games of his 2nd year, Zion is right up there or even better offensively in most statistical categories despite playing over 10 minutes less per game.
LeBron averaged 25/7/7 in like 42 minutes per game
Zion is averaging 22.5/7/2 in 29 minutes per game.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 6:04 pm to Bronc
quote:
yet you want to use it to justify lowering Zion’s ceiling.
no i'm using seasons away from high school...
quote:
If it’s absurd to write Giannis off as being incapable of being a historical MVP, best in the league player 35 games into his career or ten games into his second season, might want to rethink doing so with Zion, no?
if Giannis had a major injury in his age 19 season that clearly affected him in his age 20 season...then yeah
if Giannis had not played a game in shape into his 2nd year...then yeah
Giannis is a guy, like Zion, who is VERY reliant on his athleticism
(also had to use age b/c he effectively game into the NBA as a guy who just graduated high school due to being from Europe. in his comparative, 3rd year, he averaged 2.6 stocks/game
)Posted on 1/18/21 at 6:12 pm to JohnnyKilroy
the fact that Zion is only playing 29 minutes/game is a big part of this
but look at the advanced stats. it ain't close
Lebron
VORP: 9.1
BPM: 8.6
OBPM: 7.0
DBPM: 1.7
WS: 9.7
DWS: 4.6
WS/48: .203
TS%: .554
TRB%: 10.2
AST%: 32.9
PER: 25.7
Zion
VORP: 0.3
BPM: 2.1
OBPM: 3.5
DBPM: -1.4
WS: 2.0
DWS: 0.4
WS/48: .141
TS%: .599
TRB%: 14.1
AST%: 13.3
PER: 22.8
*ETA: if you look at Zion's advanced stats you can see the decline people have posted about. other than rebounding stats, he's pretty much down across the board from year 1
but look at the advanced stats. it ain't close
Lebron
VORP: 9.1
BPM: 8.6
OBPM: 7.0
DBPM: 1.7
WS: 9.7
DWS: 4.6
WS/48: .203
TS%: .554
TRB%: 10.2
AST%: 32.9
PER: 25.7
Zion
VORP: 0.3
BPM: 2.1
OBPM: 3.5
DBPM: -1.4
WS: 2.0
DWS: 0.4
WS/48: .141
TS%: .599
TRB%: 14.1
AST%: 13.3
PER: 22.8
*ETA: if you look at Zion's advanced stats you can see the decline people have posted about. other than rebounding stats, he's pretty much down across the board from year 1
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 6:13 pm
Posted on 1/18/21 at 6:14 pm to JohnnyKilroy
I think it’s clear most of the responses in here are speculative and based primarily off of emotional and not any sort of objective comparative or analytical process.
And therefore explains why no one has been able to answer challenges or retorts that come from that space without deflecting or attempting to personally attack the other person.
There is a very real possibility Zion never reaches best in the league status, it’s frankly the more likely outcome, as is for any prospect, no matter how great, but the idea you can rule that out 35 games in to their career is patently absurd. And it’s only slightly less absurd to definitively accuse Zion for lack of effort or hustle when there are not only very plausible alternative explanations for the appearance of such behavior to certain people’s judgment, suggesting instead a misplaced understanding of the situation, but to then declare that a settled science. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence that suggest those alternative explanations seem more plausible and the more likely answer then some personally failing with regards to effort.
And therefore explains why no one has been able to answer challenges or retorts that come from that space without deflecting or attempting to personally attack the other person.
There is a very real possibility Zion never reaches best in the league status, it’s frankly the more likely outcome, as is for any prospect, no matter how great, but the idea you can rule that out 35 games in to their career is patently absurd. And it’s only slightly less absurd to definitively accuse Zion for lack of effort or hustle when there are not only very plausible alternative explanations for the appearance of such behavior to certain people’s judgment, suggesting instead a misplaced understanding of the situation, but to then declare that a settled science. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence that suggest those alternative explanations seem more plausible and the more likely answer then some personally failing with regards to effort.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 6:16 pm to Bronc
quote:
or attempting to personally attack the other person.
i haven't personally attacked anyone in this thread...or at least anyone posted. i did call a poster i'm exchanging things with on another board a fricking idiot, though.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 6:22 pm to SlowFlowPro
You continue to shift goalposts which makes me once again think you are simply shooting from the hip and engaging in motivated reasoning.
So explain KD and Curry? The latter had injuries and in his rookie season was way behind Zion in terms of productivity. Yet here we are talking about him arguably having some of the greatest seasons for any player ever. Giannis and KD were both behind Zion’s curve this time in their second seasons.
...It’s almost like you can’t write off a player 35 games into their career. Especially one that has had such unusual circumstances imposed on him
So explain KD and Curry? The latter had injuries and in his rookie season was way behind Zion in terms of productivity. Yet here we are talking about him arguably having some of the greatest seasons for any player ever. Giannis and KD were both behind Zion’s curve this time in their second seasons.
...It’s almost like you can’t write off a player 35 games into their career. Especially one that has had such unusual circumstances imposed on him
Posted on 1/18/21 at 6:58 pm to Bronc
quote:
So explain KD and Curry?
KD is closer
KD
VORP: 3.8
BPM: 3.3
OBPM: 3.4
DBPM: -0.1
WS: 7.9
DWS: 2.7
WS/48: .132
TS%: .577
TRB%: 9.6
AST%: 12.0
PER: 20.8
Zion
VORP: 0.3
BPM: 2.1
OBPM: 3.5
DBPM: -1.4
WS: 2.0
DWS: 0.4
WS/48: .141
TS%: .599
TRB%: 14.1
AST%: 13.3
PER: 22.8
Curry is a major outlier. can't even really compare Curry yet b/c he was still playing in college
Kawhi also was an outlier who developed "late". different than Curry, though. Curry took off when he had synergy with his coach but that kind of leap is possible late b/c his plus traits were skill-based and not athleticism-based. Kawhi had to learn how to shoot
we're talking about ranges and rates/likelihoods of parts of the ranges. Zion doesn't have a 0% chance of being peak lebron and won't for a few years. it's just a lot less likely today that he'll reach the peak than it was 400 days ago
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:12 pm to SlowFlowPro
Then this simply circles back to my initial post in this thread, if you were seriously expecting Zion, or any player, to literally come into the league and that early on falling short of the career trajectory of a top 3 all time player is a disappointment, the problem was with you, not Zion. As that’s just an insane bar to have that even eventual all time greats couldn’t achieve.
And to catastrophize over that probability lowering a bit more from what should have been an already highly improbable place is absurd.
Same with claiming 35 games into Zion’s career eliminates the possibility of him being an MVP/best in the league type of player. Which has also been a common position.
Fact is not much has changed in where Zion’s realistic ceiling lies at this point. It’s still best player in the league high, with shortened career and injury plagued but still borderline top 25 player being his floor. That floor arguably higher than where it was before the draft, since his game not really translating well was a minor but real possibility. One that is clearly not the case at this point.
And to catastrophize over that probability lowering a bit more from what should have been an already highly improbable place is absurd.
Same with claiming 35 games into Zion’s career eliminates the possibility of him being an MVP/best in the league type of player. Which has also been a common position.
Fact is not much has changed in where Zion’s realistic ceiling lies at this point. It’s still best player in the league high, with shortened career and injury plagued but still borderline top 25 player being his floor. That floor arguably higher than where it was before the draft, since his game not really translating well was a minor but real possibility. One that is clearly not the case at this point.
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 7:14 pm
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:19 pm to Bronc
quote:Do you just lie or forget that you've thrown out more personal attacks in the past 24 hours in this thread than anyone else?
or attempting to personally attack the other person.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:19 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:This dude is pretty delusional
i haven't personally attacked anyone in this thread...or at least anyone posted
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:20 pm to shel311
Still waiting on that quote you claimed I made chief
Edit: and it’s not the personal attacks I take issue with, lots of morons around here that deserve to be called as such(see trade for Kyrie thread), it’s using personal attacks in place of actually making an argument.
Edit: and it’s not the personal attacks I take issue with, lots of morons around here that deserve to be called as such(see trade for Kyrie thread), it’s using personal attacks in place of actually making an argument.
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 7:24 pm
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:21 pm to Bronc
quote:
You’re right, yet you want to use it to justify lowering Zion’s ceiling.
Maybe learn to be consistent?
If it’s absurd to write Giannis off as being incapable of being a historical MVP, best in the league player 35 games into his career or ten games into his second season, might want to rethink doing so with Zion, no?
Dude, how many times does he have to tell you that his argument is based on Zion not demonstrating the same level of athleticism he displayed at Duke?
If you think he’s wrong about that point then address it specifically.
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:27 pm to southdowns84
quote:
how many times does he have to tell you that his argument is based on Zion not demonstrating the same level of athleticism he displayed at Duke?
Zion had a way too risky playstyle at Duke anyway.
Aaron Nelson has the answers to all questions about Zion's athleticism, best to ask him what happened ^^
Posted on 1/18/21 at 7:30 pm to southdowns84
quote:
If you think he’s wrong about that point then address it specifically.
People have, for the last 3 pages, catch up champ.
Zion put on display yesterday freakish displays of skill and athleticism, which many prior claimed he had all but permanently lost. And many like TigerAtL, GOP and myself warned we should not dismiss the likelihood that the nature of the season/off season, his problematic circumstance due to those and other factors, the scaled back offensive scheme, preventive conditioning measures, and the defensive learning curve was leading to a false impression of his effort and a false impression of a ceiling crippling drop in his athletic capacity.
As the offense has expanded and evolved for Zion, as he has managed to improve his read and react skills, it would appear that the above explanation seems more and more to be the case, and not the ones claiming some personal effort issues or some permanent and drastic drop in his athletic capacity.
This post was edited on 1/18/21 at 7:36 pm
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