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re: Honest Zion talk for Emotional Intelligent Folks
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:28 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:28 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Yea, that's kinda where I'm trying to go with that.
yeah the alternative is that he was confused on one of the most obvious rotations in NBA history. he's not mentally deficient so it had to be effort
If you're saying that is not a lack of effort, I think that's an even MUCH bigger indictment on Zion then.
0
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:30 am to shel311
quote:
Would you agree that if he gave more effort on that play, he could have made more of a positive impact on the result of that play?
I agree but i especially think that Zion has bad defensive IQ basketball above all (atm).
He has sometimes lack of effort but it's his defensive IQ basketball his main issue.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:38 am to Bronc
Man you keep saying things like irrational and absurd.
It is not.
Here’s the logic in a nutshell: Zion is short. All of the other guys you mention are very tall for their position. LeBron is actually the tallest strongest PG ever. Giannis the best athlete and size the game has ever seen.
The NBA is littered with guys who were able overcome that disability by being overpowering, fast, etc. iverson with his speed, for instance.
Zion might be huge in girth but he will always have to work harder than the bugs surrounding him. He will have to be relentless and beating everyone to everything. That was Barkley. He will have to play like his hair is on fire.
And Zion doesn’t.
And when his athleticism declines for any reason injury or age he will age terribly.
The kid is 20. But you expect him to get stronger? He is physically mature.
You say age like it’s a metric of physical maturity. It’s not. Different people blossom at different ages. It’s why KD looked like he was 12 when he came into the league.
Upside happens when someone can hack it when they’re babyfaced with room to grow.
I want Zion’s success more than just about everyone. But unless he starts amassing some tools into his warchest soon, I’m not even sure he ll be the best player from his draft class let alone the league. Right now he might not even be second.
Get out of here with that. I don’t care what his stats say. I watched the ball leave his hand. AD shot it easy and with touch. You use stats to try to prove points instead of watching basketball.
It’s literally in ADs draft profile.
Everyone thought AD had a good jump shot for a big and it might be able to translate.
And again— AD IS SIX INCHES TALLER THAN ZION. They play the same position. Would you run a pick and pop for Zion now? So you foresee being able to run a pick and pop for Zion?!
What’s that - it would take huge improvement for him to even be able to consider that?
So we have a roll guy then. Like Amare. Or young Blake (Blake now can hit 3s).
Okay. You’re finally getting there. We have an undersized big that will have to rely on a relentless motor he doesn’t seem to have who can’t run a pick and pop in a league that’s dedicated to floor spacing.
It is not.
Here’s the logic in a nutshell: Zion is short. All of the other guys you mention are very tall for their position. LeBron is actually the tallest strongest PG ever. Giannis the best athlete and size the game has ever seen.
The NBA is littered with guys who were able overcome that disability by being overpowering, fast, etc. iverson with his speed, for instance.
Zion might be huge in girth but he will always have to work harder than the bugs surrounding him. He will have to be relentless and beating everyone to everything. That was Barkley. He will have to play like his hair is on fire.
And Zion doesn’t.
And when his athleticism declines for any reason injury or age he will age terribly.
The kid is 20. But you expect him to get stronger? He is physically mature.
You say age like it’s a metric of physical maturity. It’s not. Different people blossom at different ages. It’s why KD looked like he was 12 when he came into the league.
Upside happens when someone can hack it when they’re babyfaced with room to grow.
I want Zion’s success more than just about everyone. But unless he starts amassing some tools into his warchest soon, I’m not even sure he ll be the best player from his draft class let alone the league. Right now he might not even be second.
quote:
Talk about rewriting history. AD came into the league with a broken jump shot and shooting 34% on jumpers and 26% on 16 footers. You know what fixed that? Working with Fred Vinson. You know who we have on the staff? A guy named Fred Vinson.
Get out of here with that. I don’t care what his stats say. I watched the ball leave his hand. AD shot it easy and with touch. You use stats to try to prove points instead of watching basketball.
It’s literally in ADs draft profile.
quote:
His jump shot form is aesthetically pleasing (71% FT), and its effectiveness certainly can be cultivated with work and experience … Shows glimpses of pick and pop aptitude
Everyone thought AD had a good jump shot for a big and it might be able to translate.
And again— AD IS SIX INCHES TALLER THAN ZION. They play the same position. Would you run a pick and pop for Zion now? So you foresee being able to run a pick and pop for Zion?!
What’s that - it would take huge improvement for him to even be able to consider that?
So we have a roll guy then. Like Amare. Or young Blake (Blake now can hit 3s).
Okay. You’re finally getting there. We have an undersized big that will have to rely on a relentless motor he doesn’t seem to have who can’t run a pick and pop in a league that’s dedicated to floor spacing.
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 10:51 am
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:44 am to nicj4
Zion is a physical freak that played in a high school division in which he was so athletically superior that he never had to focus on rotations, defensive positioning, and concepts. He then played at Duke where he was there for only a year and he only played for 2/3 of the season. He missed most of conference play when college game plans and scouting get much more in depth.
This is why I laugh every time someone says that games played doesn't matter. It really is the only thing that matters when talking about Zion's defense and grasp of defensive positioning and concepts. He missed most of his rookie year and then his practices since March have been rushed in the bubble setting or been rushed in the quick season start up. The only way he is going to get better is to continue to gain experience. It is obvious that most here have no clue how complex NBA defensive coverages and rotations are.
I think it is fairly obvious that he is getting more comfortable with each game played. It is very hard to play the game at full speed when you are thinking the whole time. As Zion settles in, he will get more impactful on both ends of the floor. This thread features a whole lot of overreacting.
This is why I laugh every time someone says that games played doesn't matter. It really is the only thing that matters when talking about Zion's defense and grasp of defensive positioning and concepts. He missed most of his rookie year and then his practices since March have been rushed in the bubble setting or been rushed in the quick season start up. The only way he is going to get better is to continue to gain experience. It is obvious that most here have no clue how complex NBA defensive coverages and rotations are.
I think it is fairly obvious that he is getting more comfortable with each game played. It is very hard to play the game at full speed when you are thinking the whole time. As Zion settles in, he will get more impactful on both ends of the floor. This thread features a whole lot of overreacting.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:47 am to LSU Fan 90812
Zion is clearly a SF...
When he will have shooting capacity, he will must play at this position.
When he will have shooting capacity, he will must play at this position.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 10:54 am to nicj4
Except right now he can’t play on offense or defense at the 3.
A point I made in my first post.
Zion right now is playing 4.
You know who else played SF who this dude is comparing him to? LeBron who dribbled better, shot better, passed better, was as physically gifted as and was much taller than Zion at this point.
Zion has only shown the briefest glimpses of being able to play 3. LeBron lived there immediately.
A point I made in my first post.
Zion right now is playing 4.
You know who else played SF who this dude is comparing him to? LeBron who dribbled better, shot better, passed better, was as physically gifted as and was much taller than Zion at this point.
Zion has only shown the briefest glimpses of being able to play 3. LeBron lived there immediately.
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 10:58 am
Posted on 1/19/21 at 11:26 am to LSU Fan 90812
What in Zion's 10 years of playing basketball made you think that he would be a wing defender 35 games into his career? He played center in high school and played the four at Duke. Remember, Duke had Jones, Barrett, and Reddish at the 1-3. Nobody who pays attention thought Zion would be a three at this time. He shows flashes of ability to handle the ball and facilitate. He just has to work on those aspects. I have no doubt he will.
Guys get better and their games completely change over time. Jason Kidd and Vince Carter are both top 10 all time in made 3 pointers and shot 27% and 28% respectively in their first seasons.
For now, I think we should look for month to month improvement and enjoy our young player who just scored 31 points on 87% shooting in a road win.
Zion's last six games he is averaging 25/8 on 60% shooting. I will take that kind of production while he is figuring things out.
Guys get better and their games completely change over time. Jason Kidd and Vince Carter are both top 10 all time in made 3 pointers and shot 27% and 28% respectively in their first seasons.
For now, I think we should look for month to month improvement and enjoy our young player who just scored 31 points on 87% shooting in a road win.
Zion's last six games he is averaging 25/8 on 60% shooting. I will take that kind of production while he is figuring things out.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 12:29 pm to ThePistol
You are making my argument for me— and the answer was nothing. The hope was that Zion’s lateral quickness would be enough to translate into possessions he could guard on the perimeter. But that has not born out at all.
Zion is a 6’6 player with a wingspan of 6’10. LeBron is 6’8. Paul George is 6’8. KD is 7’. Kawhi is 6’7 with long arms. Ben simmons is 6’10. shite even Ingram is 6’8. The fact is that Zion is slightly undersized even for a 3.
And his perimeter skill set is less developed than most 5s.
Therefore in today’s NBA he plays 4 or small ball 5. Which he is SEVERELY undersized. Literally three different positions can shoot over him like he’s a chair in practice.
Jason Kidd is a rare case of developing a shot late in his career. Vince could always shoot, but had horrible shot selection at a time that 3 point shooting was inefficient.
Zion’s problem is not that he’s a bad player. But his upside has a ceiling lower than the generational player most assumed he could be in the tankathon.
The truth hurts but right now BI has a much better chance of being a top 10 player than Zion.
Zion is a 6’6 player with a wingspan of 6’10. LeBron is 6’8. Paul George is 6’8. KD is 7’. Kawhi is 6’7 with long arms. Ben simmons is 6’10. shite even Ingram is 6’8. The fact is that Zion is slightly undersized even for a 3.
And his perimeter skill set is less developed than most 5s.
Therefore in today’s NBA he plays 4 or small ball 5. Which he is SEVERELY undersized. Literally three different positions can shoot over him like he’s a chair in practice.
Jason Kidd is a rare case of developing a shot late in his career. Vince could always shoot, but had horrible shot selection at a time that 3 point shooting was inefficient.
Zion’s problem is not that he’s a bad player. But his upside has a ceiling lower than the generational player most assumed he could be in the tankathon.
The truth hurts but right now BI has a much better chance of being a top 10 player than Zion.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 12:34 pm to TotesMcGotes
quote:
He 100% quit on the play and Holmes gets a wide open layup out of it. This isn’t debatable.
I can’t help if you don’t know how to watch and understand NBA defense.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 12:35 pm to CP3forMVP
quote:
But you literally said his ceiling is best player in the league, when it clearly is a good bit lower than that. So do you have a realistic perspective?
And that’s still the upper bound of his ceiling, 35 games hasn’t changed that. Especially when his first 35 games have him trending as an all time great
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 12:36 pm
Posted on 1/19/21 at 12:37 pm to Bronc
quote:
I can’t help if you don’t know how to watch and understand NBA defense.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 12:47 pm to Bronc
quote:
I can’t help if you don’t know how to watch and understand NBA defense.
Look, it's clear your whole shtick here is to be the board Zion defender, but you can do that and still acknowledge a shortcoming that's plain as day.
He absolutely quit on that play. You think when they were reviewing the film, the coaches looked at that and said "that's on Steven Adams"? Absolutely not.
Maybe let this one go.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 12:57 pm to TotesMcGotes
quote:
Look, it's clear your whole shtick here is to be the board Zion defender
It’s funny because it’s anything but...except in the face of absurd nonsense like this thread and the people wanting to lower Zion’s ceiling based on 35 games and lazy assumptions
As for the play, I went over it. Zion failed in over committing to Hield and didn’t have enough anticipation to position himself in a way he could successfully get back into position to deny the driving lane for Holmes, in that situation he really has two choices: commit a foul, blocking or grab, on an 85% FT shooter, or drive him over to the help position and hope Adams can shade over fast enough to deny an easy lay up, which he couldn’t.
The play is on Zion, and a bit on Walker, but the idea he flat out quit on that play is nonsense.
But this all arises becaus you couldn’t just admit Zion had a good game, you just HAD to find some negative and emphasize that to save face. And I fully expected when I went back to look at the play that I would see a Zion gassed or just not trying, but that’s not what happened on that play
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 1:05 pm
Posted on 1/19/21 at 1:27 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:
Zion is a 6’6 player with a wingspan of 6’10. LeBron is 6’8. Paul George is 6’8. KD is 7’. Kawhi is 6’7 with long arms. Ben simmons is 6’10. shite even Ingram is 6’8. The fact is that Zion is slightly undersized even for a 3.
None of this has changed since he was at Duke. Was no one paying attention prior to the draft? Did you assume he was going to grow? Zion still has elite athleticism and will be fine defensively as he continues to develop. He has shown the ability to stay in front of the quickest players, just like he did on the iso with Fox last game. Give the man time to develop.
quote:
Literally three different positions can shoot over him like he’s a chair in practice.
Come on man. quote:
The truth hurts but right now BI has a much better chance of being a top 10 player than Zion.
There is no guarantee that Ingram will finish this season as a better player than Zion. Ingram is in his fifth full season and has played 264 career games. BI has worked hard and become much better. I am very happy that BI is improving but he is still struggling defensively and to close games. Zion already has a better PER. Zion has A LOT to work on and improve but my goodness, can we let him have some time in the league. Please go look at BI's stats through his first 35 games and then look at Zion's.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 1:40 pm to Bronc
quote:
But this all arises becaus you couldn’t just admit Zion had a good game
quote:
I’ll give it to him. He played his best game as a Pel last night. Effort was there. Intensity was there. Best athlete on the court for 4 quarters.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 1:41 pm to Bronc
If you can't admit that he quit on that play, then I have nothing else to say. Most everyone else can acknowledge it. This is a remarkably shitty hill to die on.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 1:46 pm to Bronc
quote:
The play is on Zion, and a bit on Walker
It's on Zion. None of it is on Nickeil, who did exactly what he was supposed to do. He goes above the screen because it's Buddy, recovers, and then Zion doesn't get back to his man. He just stares at Holmes. He doesn't try to recover, either.
Posted on 1/19/21 at 4:18 pm to ThePistol
quote:
None of this has changed since he was at Duke. Was no one paying attention prior to the draft?
jesus christ. we were all paying attention. except now it's not hypothetical-- he's in front of nba 3s and 4s and getting roasted.
quote:
Did you assume he was going to grow?
no we assumed he would play as hard as he did at duke, and develop enough of an offensive game to where he could potentially play some 3.
quote:
Zion still has elite athleticism and will be fine defensively as he continues to develop. He has shown the ability to stay in front of the quickest players, just like he did on the iso with Fox last game. Give the man time to develop.
which is what we're saying. he hasn't shown that ability to stay in front of basically anyone. and there are quite a few elite athletes (with even better measurables) who never diversified their games. Aaron gordon comes to mind.
quote:
Come on man.
you come on. in a league where 7' guys take fade away and step back 3s, being 6'6 matters, if you're having to put the 6'6 guys on bigger players.
If he's a 5, can he keep brooke lopez from getting a good look?
If he's a 4 can he keep AD? Let alone KD.
If he's a 3 can he guard Luka?
He has shown little to no aptitude to guarding any of these types of players.
quote:
There is no guarantee that Ingram will finish this season as a better player than Zion. Ingram is in his fifth full season and has played 264 career games. BI has worked hard and become much better. I am very happy that BI is improving but he is still struggling defensively and to close games. Zion already has a better PER. Zion has A LOT to work on and improve but my goodness, can we let him have some time in the league. Please go look at BI's stats through his first 35 games and then look at Zion's.
You keep referencing this 35 games as if it's a magical marker. it doesn't matter how many games a player has played. it matters what they do well in relation to what their skillsets and physical limitations will allow them to do better. In joel embiid's first ten games after sitting out three years, we saw hints that if it all played out right, he could be the best player in the nba. will he get there? who knows. But we saw that potential.
ben simmons at 35 games for instance, is pretty much the exact same player ben simmons is now. And the reason is simple-- ben came into the league physically mature at 20 years old. his body looks exactly the same. There is a limit to his upside.
You're not understanding that zion has maxed out his athleticism and interior effectiveness. he could only marginally be a better finisher around the rim. he is a 10 out of 10 at finishing. He is a 10 out of 10 strengthwise. He is not going to get exponentially stronger. In this thread there is much debate about his quickness-- is he going to get even faster?
what else can he learn to do? What skill set has he shown off that could eventually be an elite skill in the nba.
With ingram, we saw hints of being a great shooter/offensive player even back with the lakers. And if others missed it, go back in my post history and you'll see me saying exactly what is happening with BI right now. Elite offensive production. Room to grow elsewhere, because he still hasn't even hit his physical peak.
You're just missing this.
And the point of the order is whether Zion could become a generational player. One worth tanking a season for.
I'm not sure he is. I'm not sure Ja won't be better. Or potentially even Herro.
It would be ridiculous to not downgrade his upside based on what we've seen this year. It was probably too high to begin with.
Also, just for the record, by this point in the season, second year 20 year old luka was starting an MVP worthy campaign.
This post was edited on 1/19/21 at 4:45 pm
Posted on 1/19/21 at 4:36 pm to LSU Fan 90812
Herro won't be better than zion but i get your point.
To me he looks down on himself
To me he looks down on himself
Posted on 1/19/21 at 5:06 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:
Also, just for the record, by this point in the season, second year 20 year old luka was starting an MVP worthy campaign.
That's an unfair comparison. Doncic has been playing pro basketball for six years. He also played 72 games his rookie year.
Through his first 35 games, Luka averaged 19.5/6/5. He improved a ton between the start of his first season and second season.
Zion is averaging 22.5/7/2 in his first 35 games. And that's on under 28 minutes per game, whereas Luka was playing 32+ as a rookie.
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