re: Poll: Wonderwall v. Any Beatles Song

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People don't like the beatles. The band never gets brought up. Nobody puts them on a playlist. You won't hear one their songs at a party. This conclusion is supported by what I believe to be a more than sufficient sample size.

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I have no idea what this means

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Baloo

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which would be a fine argument, but that's not what you've argued at all. You've actually argued that the Beatles are no longer culturally relevant while at the same time, this argument here relies upon the Beatles being not only culturally relevant, but being the absolute tentpole of pop music. Your argument seems to be "I don't like the Beatles so they aren't relevant to culture, but everyone says the Beatles are the best band ever and they're wrong."

It's an internally conflicting argument. So, to deal with the argument you've been making about Beatles not being relevant now: you're not just wrong, you're extremely wrong. What's worse, you know you're wrong, and you admit you're wrong. Because what you're really arguing against is the Beatles massive cultural saturation and whether it's deserved. Which is at least an interesting argument. So, let's deal with that separately. But a band can't be "generally recognized as the greatest band of all time" and "so ingrained into our culture" as you say and not be relevant to pop culture today. They clearly are, and you flat out admit it. Stop arguing against that point. It makes you look ridiculous.

Now, is the Beatles massive cultural influence "deserved"?

Well, if you don't like their music, then you don't like it. Tastes vary from person to person and I'm not going to argue that you like it. You don't. Good for you. So I'm going to avoid "they make good music" other than to say that they really do.

OK, what is the foundation of their reputation?

ONE. Beatlemania. I didn't live through it, but go back and look at the pop charts. It's crazy. They had the entire top 5 at one point. They were a pop culture phenomenon literally unmatched in our culture. Not even Johnny Carson was as central to the monoculture. Hell, they make Elvis look unpopular.

But even more important is that they saved rock n roll. Rock was considered a fad in the 50s that had largely died out. Buddy Holly died. Little Richard went back to making "race" records (well, his music didn't change, just the marketing). Elvis went to the army and came back a crooner in the vein of Tin Pan Alley. The British Invasion, led by the Beatles, transformed rock into a viable musical genre beyond a short fad.

TWO. The LP.

The Beatles influence is so massive, they changed how we consume music. Before the Beatles, pop musicians largely sold singles. Full albums were collections of singles, but it was the 45 that was the lifeblood of pop music. The Beatles were one of the first pop bands to released full albums conceived as one coherent work of art. This is a change so fundamental, it's hard for us to understand the seismic shift. They would then introduce us to the "concept album" a few years later.

THREE. Songwriting.

Pop singers were not songwriters. They largely played songs written by other people. A truly ambitious band might actually choose the songs they were playing and then write a few songs of their own. But the Beatles moved from primarily a cover band, like every other pop band, and started primarily writing and controlling their own material. They were their own masters. The Rolling Stones didn't write their won songs until they saw the Beatles, and they even stole their format of writing (the two man team).

The Beatles would then branch out their lyrical muscles, inspired by Bob Dylan, and write about more and more topics than just getting a girlfriend. The same band that wrote I Wanna Hold Your Hand wrote Tomorrow Never Comes just three years later. Amazing development.

FOUR. Recording.

The Beatles changed how bands recorded. Pop music wasn't taken seriously as an art form, so their records were recorded nearly live and on the cheap. The Beatles invested heavily in state of the art recording, and were pioneers in looping dual tracking.

So the Beatles changed what bands wrote, played, how it was recorded, how it was consumed, and what the content was. They also created a genre, it's called all of modern pop music.

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how did I misrepresent your argument? where's the strawman? You DID say you don't like the music. You DID say they aren't relevant to culture. And you DID say that everyone says the Beatles are the best band.

So, connecting your three statements is somehow unfair? Why? What's wrong about it?

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To support the objective part of your argument I'll share some of my own anecdotal experience - When I was growing up I spent a few of my teen years living in the Ozarks. Classic Rock was pretty popular amongst most of the people I knew there, a lot of Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, Grateful Dead, Pink Floyd, etc. But I don't remember many people listening to The Beatles

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ONE. Beatlemania.

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TWO. The LP.

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THREE. Songwriting.

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The Beatles invested heavily in state of the art recording, and were pioneers in looping dual tracking

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OK, what is the foundation of their reputation?

ONE. Beatlemania. I didn't live through it, but go back and look at the pop charts. It's crazy. They had the entire top 5 at one point. They were a pop culture phenomenon literally unmatched in our culture. Not even Johnny Carson was as central to the monoculture. Hell, they make Elvis look unpopular.

But even more important is that they saved rock n roll. Rock was considered a fad in the 50s that had largely died out. Buddy Holly died. Little Richard went back to making "race" records (well, his music didn't change, just the marketing). Elvis went to the army and came back a crooner in the vein of Tin Pan Alley. The British Invasion, led by the Beatles, transformed rock into a viable musical genre beyond a short fad.

TWO. The LP.

The Beatles influence is so massive, they changed how we consume music. Before the Beatles, pop musicians largely sold singles. Full albums were collections of singles, but it was the 45 that was the lifeblood of pop music. The Beatles were one of the first pop bands to released full albums conceived as one coherent work of art. This is a change so fundamental, it's hard for us to understand the seismic shift. They would then introduce us to the "concept album" a few years later.

THREE. Songwriting.

Pop singers were not songwriters. They largely played songs written by other people. A truly ambitious band might actually choose the songs they were playing and then write a few songs of their own. But the Beatles moved from primarily a cover band, like every other pop band, and started primarily writing and controlling their own material. They were their own masters. The Rolling Stones didn't write their won songs until they saw the Beatles, and they even stole their format of writing (the two man team).

The Beatles would then branch out their lyrical muscles, inspired by Bob Dylan, and write about more and more topics than just getting a girlfriend. The same band that wrote I Wanna Hold Your Hand wrote Tomorrow Never Comes just three years later. Amazing development.

FOUR. Recording.

The Beatles changed how bands recorded. Pop music wasn't taken seriously as an art form, so their records were recorded nearly live and on the cheap. The Beatles invested heavily in state of the art recording, and were pioneers in looping dual tracking.

So the Beatles changed what bands wrote, played, how it was recorded, how it was consumed, and what the content was. They also created a genre, it's called all of modern pop music.

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