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re: Waco - the FBI should be razed to the ground
Posted on 4/22/20 at 1:10 am to The Quiet One
Posted on 4/22/20 at 1:10 am to The Quiet One
Are you saying their weapon stockpiles were legal and they didn't modify them? What about the improvised explosives and poisonous gas? I'm pretty sure all of that falls into the ATF's domain.
A girl testified in front of congress that Koresh rapped her at 10. He has numerous child brides. The guy was a deviant. What would you have suggested? If all of it wasn't necessary, how did they defeat the first assault?
A girl testified in front of congress that Koresh rapped her at 10. He has numerous child brides. The guy was a deviant. What would you have suggested? If all of it wasn't necessary, how did they defeat the first assault?
3
Posted on 4/22/20 at 1:14 am to Fenwick86
He went a jog every damn morning down that road. if they wanted him without a shot fired they could have had him, but that’s not what they wanted. They wanted a spectacle, and they got it in spades.
Anyone ever visited the site? fricking creepy man.
Anyone ever visited the site? fricking creepy man.
Posted on 4/22/20 at 1:21 am to brmark70816
Was there any evidence ever found that their weapons were modified? I know the gunfire coming from the compound was semi auto.
The ATF overreached and their actions directly led to the death of all those people.
Koresh preached about Armageddon and their sect being attacked.
The ATF made that prophecy come true. Koresh should have been in prison for molestation and rape, but that’s not as sensational as a gun hoarding doomsday cult I guess.
The ATF overreached and their actions directly led to the death of all those people.
Koresh preached about Armageddon and their sect being attacked.
The ATF made that prophecy come true. Koresh should have been in prison for molestation and rape, but that’s not as sensational as a gun hoarding doomsday cult I guess.
Posted on 4/22/20 at 1:28 am to The Quiet One
quote:
The Quiet One
quote:
Koresh was a pedophile and a rapist.
Neither is the domain of the ATF
quote:
But, muh children. LOL
Jesus Christ. He was a raping pedophile and your first argument defending him is jurisdiction?
Posted on 4/22/20 at 1:37 am to brmark70816
quote:
Are you saying their weapon stockpiles were legal and they didn't modify them?
No and don’t go Cathy Newman on me. But now you’re moving goalposts. ATF didn’t give one damn shite about children. They weren’t there for them; their actions ultimately killed many of them. For what? Some guns?
Tell me, before February 28, 1993, who did the Branch Davidians ever threaten or attack? Again, do we need choppers and tanks and an elite tactical force to serve a warrant when over half the people in that location are women and children?
ATF wanted to big dick some citizens as per their usual MO.
quote:
What about the improvised explosives and poisonous gas?
New one to me. Admittedly, I don’t know every possible allegation. I know they had things like molotovs. Is your assertion that they had IEDs and their own chemical weapons? Got a link to this?
quote:
A girl testified in front of congress that Koresh rapped her at 10. He has numerous child brides. The guy was a deviant. What would you have suggested? If all of it wasn't necessary, how did they defeat the first assault?
Let’s assume everything you said is 100% fact.
First, the BD never used those weapons in any hostile capacity until the day the ATF arrived. BTW, the ATF never announced their warrant. They never knocked. They didn’t even use a megaphone to announce the warrant. They just started shooting as soon as Koresh stepped out.
Second, you’re telling me these abused children needed rescuing, so ATF attempted to rescue them by attacking their position with choppers, tanks and an army firing blindly into the building, subjecting them to 51 days of psychological torture, then ultimately using tanks to run over them, gas them, shoot at them and burn them alive.
Does Koresh share some culpability? Absolutely. But I expect the federal fricking government to conduct itself better than a so-called child-raping cultist.
Posted on 4/22/20 at 1:54 am to The Quiet One
Same people bitching about WACO/FBI/ATF have no problem with ICE housing immigrant children in cages. ICE is seen as MAGA and FBI is seen as bad because Trump is scared to of them and the dirt he knows they have on him. Trump cult and Koresh cult. A cults a cult. Both are brainwashed and follow a false god. Both would die for their leader and believe every word that they say. Not to mention both leaders raped underage children.
Posted on 4/22/20 at 1:54 am to SHOtime Tiger
quote:
Jesus Christ. He was a raping pedophile and your first argument defending him is jurisdiction?
Who’s defending [him]? Again, ATF was not there serving a warrant for charges involving child abuse. So yes, ATF has no jurisdiction. Which was the point of my post. People trying this “think of the children” prattle are intentionally obtuse in trying to justify the ridiculous force used by the. government. It’s bullshite hindsight and it flies right in the face of thr government’s own actions during the seige.
But since you missed the obvious, yeah, I’m questioning the methods in rescuing these poor children. So is it your position to shoot them, psychologically torture them, gas them, crush them with tanks and burn them alive with all the power of a heavily-armed army?
Posted on 4/22/20 at 1:59 am to YNWA
quote:
Same people bitching about WACO/FBI/ATF have no problem with ICE housing immigrant children in cages. ICE is seen as MAGA and FBI is seen as bad because Trump is scared to of them and the dirt he knows they have on him. Trump cult and Koresh cult. A cults a cult. Both are brainwashed and follow a false god. Both would die for their leader and believe every word that they say. Not to mention both leaders raped underage children.
Found the r/politics mod. All of this is nonsense.
Posted on 4/22/20 at 2:02 am to The Quiet One
Yeah, you need to go review the warrants and allegations. There is just a ton you are missing. The timelines and events aren't how you describe as well.
There are opposing points that people always miss on this. They say they were mainly women and children, that it was a overreaction and military level equipment was overkill. But the Cult defeated the first assault. They could have killed all of the agents. The ATF was out of ammo and sitting ducks. If they were no threat, how did they win?
There are opposing points that people always miss on this. They say they were mainly women and children, that it was a overreaction and military level equipment was overkill. But the Cult defeated the first assault. They could have killed all of the agents. The ATF was out of ammo and sitting ducks. If they were no threat, how did they win?
Posted on 4/22/20 at 2:03 am to The Quiet One
quote:
by The Quiet One
You have 3 of the last 4 posts in this thread. Do you think you might be a little heavily invested in this?
Posted on 4/22/20 at 2:14 am to SHOtime Tiger
I posted. Some responded and I responded back. Welcome to message boards.
Posted on 4/22/20 at 2:41 am to NOSA
quote:
Yes get very angry at present day for something people were responsible for 26 years ago.
May I introduce you to Orenthal James Simpson?
Posted on 4/22/20 at 2:44 am to brmark70816
quote:
But the Cult defeated the first assault. They could have killed all of the agents. The ATF was out of ammo and sitting ducks. If they were no threat, how did they win?
BD knew they were coming, had moments to prepare just in case. They had weapons. They had high ground thanks to the multi-level buildings. No one is disputing this. It’s a testament to the BD that they didn’t slaughter those remaining agents as they hauled their dead and wounded off.
But beyond that, using self-defense is not a valid argument of being a threat in the first place. It’s circular reasoning at best.
This post was edited on 4/22/20 at 2:45 am
Posted on 4/22/20 at 3:09 am to The Quiet One
Like I said, you need to read the warrants. They were weapons dealers and owned a gun shop (that gives ATF instant authority over their activities). They were stockpiling rifles, various explosives and parts to modify and constuct greater firepower. They also had components to make poisonous gas, which was noted as a potential meth lab (many members were former drug dealers with trafficking records). There were multiple affidavits used to secure the warrants which have never been questioned.
Now were the tactics effective? Hell no. It was a failed operation and went sideways quickly. Same with the FBI follow up. But there are many layers to all of that and tons of people to blame.
Should they have gone in heavy? I don't know. I think they could have tricked them and scattered/caught them outside over time. But that is hindsight and nobody knew the extent of their resources and criminal activities. But I'm never going to pity them or give them any justification. They had to be taken down..
Now were the tactics effective? Hell no. It was a failed operation and went sideways quickly. Same with the FBI follow up. But there are many layers to all of that and tons of people to blame.
Should they have gone in heavy? I don't know. I think they could have tricked them and scattered/caught them outside over time. But that is hindsight and nobody knew the extent of their resources and criminal activities. But I'm never going to pity them or give them any justification. They had to be taken down..
Posted on 4/22/20 at 3:36 am to brmark70816
The meth lab was there when koresh moved back in after a few years living in buses, after he turned in the former leader for illegal exhumation of dead bodies. And they called the cops in to clean it up.
article on it from 95 during trial
2019 article on the "meth"
quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Federal agents may have lied about the presence of a drug laboratory to get the military's help in the initial raid on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, in February 1993, ABC-TV reported Monday.
ABC's "World News Tonight" said no methamphetamine lab was ever found on the site, and secret government documents also raised questions about the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' request for help from the military.
A drug link is one of the few circumstances under which the military may assist civilian law enforcement actions.
Army documents raise doubt about whether ATF lied about the presence of a drug lab just to get military help, ABC said, without giving any specifics.
.....
The ATF cited three factors in its assumption that there was a drug lab on the site, but ABC said all three were found to be "either exaggerated or untrue. " It noted that ATF said 11 members of the cult were known drug offenders, but the Justice Department later admitted only four cult members showed up on a computer list, and those names were not double-checked with birth dates or Social Security numbers to eliminate people with similar names.
An infrared aerial photo that ATF said showed a hot spot consistent with a methamphetamine lab was never double-checked by federal drug agents and could well have been just a stove, it said.
....
A former Drug Enforcement Agency official also told ABC that use of firearms would have been extremely dangerous if a drug lab had been on thecompound, since the slightest spark could have caused a massive explosion.
article on it from 95 during trial
quote:
In preparation to serve a search warrant on Mount Carmel, the ATF agents wanted to be trained by Special Forces at Ft. Hood and have the use of military helicopter and pilots. There was a problem with this request; federal law prohibited it unless the ATF paid. This is covered under two acts.
The first is the Posse Comitatus Act, enacted in 1877, which has forbidden the military from being included in domestic law enforcement in any manner. This is logical since the military is supposed to be non-political. Historically, any place we’ve seen the military patrolling the citizens has quickly led to instability. The second law is the Economy Act which demands that civilian departments reimburse for any aid provided by the military unless the case has a “drug nexus.” For a drug case, the equipment and operators are free—for anything else the civilian agency pays. (This is Not an Assault, Hardy pp. 247-248)
Did the ATF tell the Army at Ft. Hood the Branch Davidians were “cooking meth” to avoid paying them back for their training and manpower? According to now deceased Congressman Steven Schiff of New Mexico, ”In order for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to have obtained the military assistance they did receive, not because of the Posse Comitatus Act, but because of existing military policy, they misrepresented to the military that this was an anti-drug raid when it was never an anti-drug raid.” (Waco: Rules of Engagement, 40:20)
quote:
In David Hardy’s, This is Not an Assault, he stresses, “Once the military trainers pointed out that the ATF would have to pay, the ATF suddenly claimed that the Davidians—who in fact eschewed hard liquor, tobacco, cow’s milk and junk food—were a ‘dangerous extremist organization’ believed to be producing methamphetamine.” (This is Not an Assault, Hardy, p. 258)
The evidence for the Branch Davidians, under David Koresh, being some kind of “alt-Christian Walter Whites,” is non-existent. The fact that there are people out there still parroting this long debunked talking point is evidence that a concerted effort amongst law enforcement and the media is the real “nexus.”
2019 article on the "meth"
This post was edited on 4/22/20 at 5:08 am
Posted on 4/22/20 at 4:29 am to brmark70816
quote:
Like I said, you need to read the warrants. They were weapons dealers and owned a gun shop (that gives ATF instant authority over their activities).
I know. They owned Mag Bag. You’re right; that’s why ATF was involved, not because of some concern about children like some people in this thread try to twist into being as justification for the government’s actions after the fact.
Koresh and the BD are obviously culpable in all this; it’s a matter of degree in argument. I’m not defending him, but I am defending his and the BD’s rights same as we all are supposed to have. I have still seen nothing to justify sending an army after them. They were a group of religious fanatics made up of mostly women and children, not hardened Afghan Mujahideen.
I’d encourage people to watch a documentary on YouTube called “Documentary: Waco”.
Posted on 4/22/20 at 4:38 am to The Quiet One
Was there any definitive proof of illegal weapons, grenades, chemical weapons or drug trafficking presented? My last post on the subject.
Posted on 4/22/20 at 5:02 am to The Quiet One
Negative see my previous post. It was an excuse for the ATF to use military force, and not have to pay themselves.
This post was edited on 4/22/20 at 5:15 am
Posted on 4/22/20 at 6:48 am to mikeboss550
I believe that was the conclusion. The ATF made up or exaggerated circumstances to drum up funds and support from the DEA and military. They still had bulk chemicals and glassware. But that could have been used for many purposes..
Posted on 4/22/20 at 6:52 am to More&Les
I always thought the cult members were crazy and brought this on themselves but after watching this I'm not so sure.
They were stockpiling weapons for some reason though, this thing was going to end bad one way or the other.
They were stockpiling weapons for some reason though, this thing was going to end bad one way or the other.
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