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re: Rewatching Game of Thrones has confirmed my original thoughts.
Posted on 10/15/24 at 3:43 pm to iwyLSUiwy
Posted on 10/15/24 at 3:43 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
There's a difference between lust for power/wanting to rule and literally murdering a million people.
Lust for power leads exactly to the willingness to murder millions and burn them alive. We see it in the real world right now, so it is not like this is some unrealistic interpretation.
quote:
Whether you view her as good or not is kind of irrelevant. You didn't view her as good, that's fine, but you're basing that off a general rulership mentality. The show was portraying her as good. She was in no way on the way to becoming what they made her into. She was not a mad queen
No it wasn't. It was portraying her as less evil than Cersei and the Lannisters. The point was she was no different than them or her ancestors. You simply chose to try and believe there was somehow a good and evil in this story. The way of this story is evil and more evil. Plain and simple.
The book and series showed her lust for power and what was "rightly hers" turning her mad, just as it did her father. That was entirely the point. She actually was and she had to be talked down many times. Hell, she burned all the Dothraki Khals' alive and then used their army for her own gains. That is pure evil and selfish ambition she is owed.
quote:
And almost overnight she went from a lesser evil than Cersei to an evil that Cersei never came close to. She went from chaining up her dragons because they burned up one farmers kid to burning up a million innocent people after the battle was won.. all because Jon wouldn't bone her anymore.
That is the point. As she got closer to attaining her goal, any setbacks made her more and more lost into the ambition and willing to cross those lines. Again, you ignore that her counselors/adivsors were actually the ones keeping her from doing horrible things. You just saw her as the bright light in the game in contrast to the dark.
Reality is that they all became what they fought to defeat. It's what happens with power and why Jon Snow was the one that was so different. He didn't want the power. He didn't believe he was owed it, nor did he think he inherited it.
It's a book on how you can't create true peace as long as you have kings/Queens. It simply never works. She was evil as I said, just less evil until she tastes the power and her belief that she is ordained to it.
2
Posted on 10/15/24 at 3:54 pm to Geauxgurt
Again IMO it was the quickness of the way it was done and the timing.
They tried to create this huge shock by having it kind of come out of left field and they failed.
If she had done it in order to win a battle, for a strategic advantage, or in retaliation for something that had happened to her it would’ve made sense. But she really had no reason, she already won, that’s what made it poorly done IMO.
And also, as my OP suggests. If it would’ve happened prior to defeating the night king, I think it would’ve been better received
They tried to create this huge shock by having it kind of come out of left field and they failed.
If she had done it in order to win a battle, for a strategic advantage, or in retaliation for something that had happened to her it would’ve made sense. But she really had no reason, she already won, that’s what made it poorly done IMO.
And also, as my OP suggests. If it would’ve happened prior to defeating the night king, I think it would’ve been better received
Posted on 10/15/24 at 4:11 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
No it wasn't. It was portraying her as less evil than Cersei and the Lannisters. The point was she was no different than them or her ancestors. You simply chose to try and believe there was somehow a good and evil in this story. The way of this story is evil and more evil. Plain and simple
I feel like we were watching different shows
I mean you viewed her as evil the whole time and that's fine. But that is not how the show portrayed her and the show runners straight up say that is not how they were portraying her. That's why they thought they had some "Got ya" moment. It just didn't work. At all. I mean you're in the minority here. In the 10 years of discussing this on Tigerdroppings you might be the first person I've seen try and make this argument. quote:
The book and series showed her lust for power and what was "rightly hers" turning her mad, just as it did her father. That was entirely the point.
When a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin right? The show is telling you the entire time that she is different from all the past mad Targaryens. Until the last 2 episodes. I'm fine if she goes mad in the books (not that they'll ever be released) because GRRM will have some lead up to it, Dumb and Dumber just did it in a retarded way.
Posted on 10/15/24 at 4:13 pm to Tiger1242
quote:
Again IMO it was the quickness of the way it was done and the timing.
I agree that another approach could have shown it as more of a progression, but that's usually not how these things work. The true nature of people comes out quickly when it does, not over time. I think that is what their goal was. It was definitely rushed and could have been more developed for sure. They punted on it because it was the end of the show.
I also agree with you that shifting the fight with the Night King to the end would have been best. I think they simply needed Season 7 to be coherent, and said screw it. This is the big payoff. Let's get it "right" (I know they screwed the pooch to an extent) rather than the ending they figured out.
Posted on 10/15/24 at 4:18 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
I feel like we were watching different shows I mean you viewed her as evil the whole time and that's fine. But that is not how the show portrayed her and the show runners straight up say that is not how they were portraying her. That's why they thought they had some "Got ya" moment. It just didn't work. At all. I mean you're in the minority here. In the 10 years of discussing this on Tigerdroppings you might be the first person I've seen try and make this argument.
I don't think so. I think they were trying to show her in a good light and as the ying to the Lannister yang, but you can't make a king/queen decreed by "royal blood" into some type of savior. The idea of kings and queens inherently place lesser value on the others and subjugation. It is just what it is. I think they couldn't find a way out of that, and is also why they (and likely GRRM) wanted Bran as the king in the end. He wasn't wanting to lead and had no "progeny" to inherit it. It failed miserably, but was their likely reasoning.
quote:
When a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin right? The show is telling you the entire time that she is different from all the past mad Targaryens. Until the last 2 episodes. I'm fine if she goes mad in the books (not that they'll ever be released) because GRRM will have some lead up to it, Dumb and Dumber just did it in a retarded way.
Even the good Targaryen's were evil though. They just didn't go near the extremes of the bad ones. They left in place a system of hegemony that kept themselves at the top and above others. They controlled everyone to their ultimate benefit and all must serve them rather than simply letting each kingdom exist on its own. That, in and of itself, is why the good ones were still evil, but just not complete psychopaths.
Posted on 10/15/24 at 7:56 pm to Tiger1242
I only watched up until the point that it roughly coincided with ADwD. I've read about the remaining plot but refused to watch it.
Got my ol' lady watching it now, and this is her first time. She constantly asks questions, and wants spoilers to avoid too much shock and angst. Not too sure I'll give the last two seasons unless she demands it.
If that fat frick doesn't finish the last two books, I hope there is an afterlife in which I can heckle him. I started reading the books in 2001 and my balls are bluer than a clear summer sky.
Got my ol' lady watching it now, and this is her first time. She constantly asks questions, and wants spoilers to avoid too much shock and angst. Not too sure I'll give the last two seasons unless she demands it.
If that fat frick doesn't finish the last two books, I hope there is an afterlife in which I can heckle him. I started reading the books in 2001 and my balls are bluer than a clear summer sky.
Posted on 10/15/24 at 8:42 pm to HempHead
Also I think the whole TV series more than the book is a long sermon on how the Red God is the real god. All of the god of lights prosecutes come true and all of the people he brings back from the dead serve a purpose towards killing the night king.
Posted on 10/15/24 at 8:47 pm to Tiger1242
quote:
They should have had them go and fight Cersei first, then deal with the night king. After they beat the army of the dead everything else just seemed unimportant.
I loved the show and wont even arugue to try to convince anyone about the ending. Just say I still enjoyed the show a lot.
But your point is a excellent one. I agree after the long night, the rest seemed pointless
Posted on 10/15/24 at 8:59 pm to LanierSpots
I gotta say, I’m watching the long night right now. I’ve generally had the thought that it was actually a pretty well done episode other than the ridiculous plot armor of all the major characters.
Rewatching it, the video game mess of it is glaring. The fact that we see multiple major characters fighting off dozens of dead men attacking them alone is ridiculous. GOT was always well liked for its realness despite being fantasy, but this is absurd. At one point Brienne is in a corner surrounded by at least 30 of them and she’s just hacking them down 1 by 1, absurd
Rewatching it, the video game mess of it is glaring. The fact that we see multiple major characters fighting off dozens of dead men attacking them alone is ridiculous. GOT was always well liked for its realness despite being fantasy, but this is absurd. At one point Brienne is in a corner surrounded by at least 30 of them and she’s just hacking them down 1 by 1, absurd
Posted on 10/15/24 at 9:07 pm to Tiger1242
Also adding to my original OP, the fact this is the 3rd episode removes all suspense. We know there are more episodes after this so we know the Night King isn’t going to win. so the Night Kings pimp walk into the gods wood with a montage of all the major character about to die holds no real danger, we know he’s about to die in that gods wood. If this was the last or 2nd to last episode, you’d be on bated breath wondering if everyone was about to just die after all of that.
ETA: at least Theon died, frick that guy
ETA: at least Theon died, frick that guy
This post was edited on 10/15/24 at 9:10 pm
Posted on 10/15/24 at 9:21 pm to Tiger1242
Now watching Jon’s funeral speech and it rings so hollow because of the bullshite that’s about to follow it, this should be the end of the fricking show!
Posted on 10/16/24 at 8:38 am to Tiger1242
quote:
ETA: at least Theon died, frick that guy
One of the few story arcs the show got right IMO. Book Theon is one of my favorite characters actually. Would really love to read how his character turns out in the books. He's just broken away from Ramsey as it sits.
Posted on 10/16/24 at 10:08 am to Jax Teller
quote:
Jaimie should have killed the Night King. "Kingslayer" name was the biggest thing that bothered him. You gave him the incredible bounce back arc then took it all away.
Night Kingslayer and redemption.. That's how you bring a character arc home. This wasn't that fricking hard.
Jamie's character doesn't deserve redemption. He push a little kid out of a window because he saw Jamie and Cersi having sex. You hurt an innocent child and all you" deserve" is to die.
Posted on 10/16/24 at 10:25 am to Tiger1242
quote:the whole idea of actually fighting the "army of the dead" is absurd. there is zero chance of the good guys winning or even putting up a good fight, the way martin had presented the capabilities and invulnerability of the enemy. there was really no point to staging and filming the "battle" it should have been a quick massacre if we are to have beloved what we were shown about the wights and the walkers
GOT was always well liked for its realness despite being fantasy, but this is absurd
Posted on 10/16/24 at 10:26 am to Tiger1242
quote:
They should have had them go and fight Cersei first, then deal with the night king.
No no no no no
Then it's just another cringe fantasy work with the final battle of good vs evil
The sequencing was done correctly. It was just absolute dogshit
This post was edited on 10/16/24 at 10:27 am
Posted on 10/16/24 at 10:40 am to SouthEasternKaiju
quote:I don't care that Arya was the one that killed him.
Would be nice if Jon could face the Night King again and Arya could have taught him that neat knife drop trick but goodness, we can't have anyone stealing HER agency!
FFS.
What annoyed me on the battle of Winterfell was the completely retarded battle strategy. You have a fortified stone castle defended by archers, fire pits, and trebuchets. But you give up all of that defensive advantage and send your entire cavalry into a pitch dark open battlefield to get slaughtered. Then leave your infantry outside the protection of the castle walls so they can get overrun too.
2 dragons and a fortified position in the castle and they leave Dany's army in the open to get destroyed. Good thing her troops were able to respawn before she marched on Kings Landing.
Posted on 10/16/24 at 11:11 am to Tiger1242
The buildup to the fight and then having to watch it like my eyes were closed was 
Posted on 10/16/24 at 11:21 am to Tiger Prawn
I'm one of the few that despite absolutely despising the final season, actually enjoyed the battle of Winterfell.
That is overlooking the battle strategy obviously. Sending your calvary full charge into the darkness not knowing what they are heading into right off the bat being the worst part. So it didn't get off to a great start
But the actual dark filming never bothered me like many. I actually liked it. It was a battle taking place at night and it was nasty and muddy and the filming reflected that. When they took to the skies with the dragon fight, the cinematography was pretty incredible. I say this being a guy who with every fiber of his being doesn't want to give Dumb and Dumber a compliment on anything. But I actually enjoyed the episode despite it's obvious flaws.
That is overlooking the battle strategy obviously. Sending your calvary full charge into the darkness not knowing what they are heading into right off the bat being the worst part. So it didn't get off to a great start
But the actual dark filming never bothered me like many. I actually liked it. It was a battle taking place at night and it was nasty and muddy and the filming reflected that. When they took to the skies with the dragon fight, the cinematography was pretty incredible. I say this being a guy who with every fiber of his being doesn't want to give Dumb and Dumber a compliment on anything. But I actually enjoyed the episode despite it's obvious flaws.
Posted on 10/16/24 at 11:27 am to iwyLSUiwy
Yeah, visually it was amazing. I get the complaints about it being too dark, but if you watch it in a dark room then its not an issue at all.
ETA: I always assumed that the reason for the dark filming was to for budget reasons. The brighter the scene, the more detail would have to be paid to CGI, sets, effects, extras in the background, choreography for a large scale battle, etc to make sure everything still looked good. Darkness lets you scale down on a lot of that while still giving the impression of a huge battle. Camera tricks and whatnot.
ETA: I always assumed that the reason for the dark filming was to for budget reasons. The brighter the scene, the more detail would have to be paid to CGI, sets, effects, extras in the background, choreography for a large scale battle, etc to make sure everything still looked good. Darkness lets you scale down on a lot of that while still giving the impression of a huge battle. Camera tricks and whatnot.
This post was edited on 10/16/24 at 11:32 am
Posted on 10/16/24 at 12:10 pm to Tiger Prawn
100% this. Worst battle strategy ever!
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