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re: OFFICIAL "The Wire" M/TV Board rewatch thread (current discussion starts ~p. 53)

Posted on 3/4/16 at 12:13 am to
Posted by H-Town Tiger
Member since Nov 2003
61014 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 12:13 am to
I was behind last week and didn't comment on Ep: 7&8 but wanted to cause there is some important stuff:

Backwash:

Bodie with the flowers was funny stuff.

Nick dealing with Frog was a great, Frog is trying to weasel Nick, but Nick will not budge and even gets him to pay the $210 he stiffed Ziggy earlier. "I don't know how to tell you this but you're white" After Frog leaves, Nick is just sitting there and an old lady is looking out her door at him. He looks like he has a flash of guilt. It's little subtle things like that I've been noticing that really make this show.
Another example: Frank is at some kind of meeting where they are showing the ports in Rotterdam with new robot technology. Frank is horrified. It then cuts to Herc and Carv listening in on their newly "purchased" bug and Herc comments isn't technology great? It then cuts back to the meeting where Frank and the black Union guy are asking (desperate) sounding questions, noting how only 4000 people are working a massive amount of cargo. When the guy talks about eliminating dangerous work, Frank remarks you can't get hurt if you aren't working. Of course we later see "New Charles" gets hurt badly and will lose his leg.

Another key scene for the overall theme of the dock story line is when Frank is meeting with the lobbyist he's paying. Frank talks about a long line of Stevedores and sounds bitter about the lobbyist sending his kid to Princeton. The lobbyist then tells how his Great Grandfather was a knife sharpener, who made sure his grandfather graduated from HS so he wouldn't have to work a grueling job. The grandpa sent his dad to college and now this guy has a good white collar job and his son is at Princeton. That's the frustrating thing about Simon for me, he's lamenting the loss of these working class jobs, but here is a guy showing you don't have to be stuck.

Duck and Cover:

I almost feel sorry for Ziggy at this point. At the end of Ep 7 Nick gives him money from Frog and he comments how Nick is better at the business that was supposed to be his. He's pranked with the fake paternity summons from Maui and then some guys egg him on to punch Maui, who then dumps on top of some cans just piling onto his humiliation. He's a loser and knows it, but he doesn't even try to do anything and tosses the money Nick gives him out the window like a baby.

Frank gets suspicious and realizes he's under surveillance. Port cops out Beadie (did no one say, hey don't tell anyone she's been detailed?) and what about the idiots at Verizon telling him his account is flagged

I love how the judge will sign off on the wire tap warrant if they install his AC and wash his windows. Nothing like looking out for the civil rights of the citizens.

Jimmy is just about rock bottom after Elena won't get back together with him, despite one last frick (have I mentioned she's a smoke show ). Crashes his car and then tries the turn again to prove he can do it and it's worse. At least he gets laid "you can have anything you like". But with no marriage and no case he feels worthless almost breaking down in front of Bunk. but Bunk and Lester and Daniels go to bat for him cause he's a good cop. "When he's ain't policing, he's pretty much the picture postcard of a drunken self-destructive frick-up. And when he is policing, he's pretty much the same muther fricker" yep, but good poh-lice.

Frank finally meets the Greek at the end and tells them cops are on to something. The Greek compliments Frank being smart They say they will suspend operations and only move clean containers but Frank and Nick insist they still get paid. The Greek agrees because they will do business in the future, I hope Frank didn't think this was a temporary arrangement. He also tells Frank to spend his money on something like a new car or a coat, like Ziggy? The Greek has Frank by the short hairs.

This post was edited on 3/4/16 at 9:34 am
Posted by Nodust
Member since Aug 2010
22802 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 6:04 am to
So red tops and yellow tops are heroin?

What are spiders I've heard them call out this season.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
476805 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 7:10 am to
quote:

So red tops and yellow tops are heroin?

you can pretty much assume anything you see them actually selling is heroin. "dope" = heroin. coke is an afterthought on this show.

they will even say "dope and coke" when talking about drugs pretty often

the coke from the columbians was completely separate from the B/B storyline (and it was crack anyway). it was just a way to show how the greeks operate, both in business and in working as protected informants with the FBI.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
476805 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 7:14 am to
quote:

That's the frustrating thing about Simon for me, he's lamenting the loss of these working class jobs, but here is a guy showing you don't have to be stuck.

well it's kind of like when you talk about responsibility with a poster like tuba. his typical response is either "so what?" or "good for you" in a sarcastic tone

they have been programmed to see people as functions of institutions and situations and not independent beings with liberty

also they will diminish doing things the right way as being without soul or substance (boring)

so the lobbyist is the output of a function of lucky circumstance...one that has no soul or history. frank, on the other hand, is full of soul and history and tells the lobbyist this as a display of their value (if it's not who your father is, it's who your son is)

i won't get into details but this theme continues, namely destroying that valued history
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
95643 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 8:23 am to
quote:

you can pretty much assume anything you see them actually selling is heroin. "dope" = heroin. coke is an afterthought on this show. they will even say "dope and coke" when talking about drugs pretty often


This is certainly true in The Wire - the big mover was heroin (under whatever bullshite brand name they were selling - even Stringer comments on that). As a rule, in an urban, open air street market like West Baltimore, they carry what they carry. They probably have a modest amount of speedballs prepackaged for sale. Although in a contemporary setting of the late 90s/early 00s, The Wire's source material is really informed by the retail heroin market of the late 1960s through early 1980s. Crack should have been a more prominent player, but it is what it is. Simon's experience really predates that and goes back to a time where powdered cocaine was the hard drug of the white and wealthy and heroin was the hard drug of the poor and black, at least in Baltimore.

The vast majority of the B&B clientele are heroin addicts.
This post was edited on 3/4/16 at 8:25 am
Posted by SlowFlowPro
With populists, expect populism
Member since Jan 2004
476805 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 8:28 am to
well to be fair, many of the addicts they show (like bubbles, who is barely in this season) are older

but yeah the youths of the late 90s/early 00s were getting their opiate fix through scripts
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
95643 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 8:36 am to
quote:

well to be fair, many of the addicts they show (like bubbles, who is barely in this season) are older but yeah the youths of the late 90s/early 00s were getting their opiate fix through scripts


The show doesn't suffer from it's relative lack of a stimulant market - does it really matter whether it was heroin junkies or crackheads? I mean, it does, but it doesn't. Certainly there remains a lucrative heroin market, but not the gold mine it was in the 60s and 70s.

Unlike weed, heroin (and to a lesser degree, the stimulants like meth and cocaine) is largely a cyclical drug - often pushed by market availability and influenced by law enforcement resources, redirection efforts, etc. The difference between weed and the hard drugs is - the hard drug users have to have it - thus their steady, reliable demand side of the equation, depending on their own resources. Weed buyers, by and large, are internally networked, they buy enough for their upcoming casual needs and are usually able to plan ahead for it.

There is no planning ahead for a junkie or a crackhead - if I have money today, I fix today. If not, my focus is on getting money to fix. And you're right, the prescription drug explosion of the 90s and 00s certainly dented the demand for heroin - but created another lucrative market in the pills themselves.

That big wheel, she keeps on turning, yeah?
This post was edited on 3/4/16 at 8:38 am
Posted by Nodust
Member since Aug 2010
22802 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 8:47 am to
quote:

Unlike weed, heroin (and to a lesser degree, the stimulants like meth and cocaine) is largely a cyclical drug - often pushed by market availability and influenced by law enforcement resources, redirection efforts, etc. The difference between weed and the hard drugs is - the hard drug users have to have it - thus their steady, reliable demand side of the equation, depending on their own resources. Weed buyers, by and large, are internally networked, they buy enough for their upcoming casual needs and are usually able to plan ahead for it.

There is no planning ahead for a junkie or a crackhead - if I have money today, I fix today. If not, my focus is on getting money to fix. And you're right, the prescription drug explosion of the 90s and 00s certainly dented the demand for heroin - but created another lucrative market in the pills themselves.


Very interesting. How much would a heroin addict like Bubbles spend daily or per fix?
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
95643 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 8:51 am to
quote:

How much would a heroin addict like Bubbles spend daily or per fix?


That's going to vary wildly - depth of the addiction, purity of available heroin, and, frankly, resources. They typically spend what they can. Heroin has been relatively immune to inflation - running $10 to $25 per dose for a long, long time.

Best estimate is anywhere from $75 to $150 is not uncommon in today's dollars - for a middle of the road heroin habit. Bubs is pretty hardcore (but also resource depleted) - so, again, in today's dollars, might be running a $200 a day habit.
Posted by Nodust
Member since Aug 2010
22802 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 8:54 am to
quote:

Best estimate is anywhere from $75 to $150 is not uncommon in today's dollars - for a middle of the road heroin habit. Bubs is pretty hardcore (but also resource depleted) - so, again, in today's dollars, might be running a $200 a day habit.


That's plenty of radiators to sell. Even $50 a day would be tough for Bubbles I think.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
95643 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 8:56 am to
quote:

That's plenty of radiators to sell. Even $50 a day would be tough for Bubbles I think.


Why do you think he started the store? Or snitching for money?
Posted by Nodust
Member since Aug 2010
22802 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 9:04 am to
quote:

Why do you think he started the store? Or snitching for money?


Junkies are some hard working folks.
Posted by H-Town Tiger
Member since Nov 2003
61014 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 9:52 am to
quote:

they have been programmed to see people as functions of institutions and situations and not independent beings with liberty

so the lobbyist is the output of a function of lucky circumstance


Yeah, that's a good point but a lot of or at least some the problems are products of the institutions that their ideology created or supports making stronger, but they can't/won't admit it. What's frustrating about Simon, is he seems to get it, but just won't let go

quote:

i won't get into details but this theme continues, namely destroying that valued history


I want to get into this more in the S2 wrap up, but wanted to mention that scene because it always stood out to me.
This post was edited on 3/4/16 at 11:54 am
Posted by H-Town Tiger
Member since Nov 2003
61014 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 9:58 am to
quote:

but yeah the youths of the late 90s/early 00s were getting their opiate fix through scripts


I thought heroin was the big thing in the mid-to-late 90's?
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
95643 posts
Posted on 3/4/16 at 11:12 am to
quote:

I thought heroin was the big thing in the mid-to-late 90's?


It waxes and wanes. Global trafficking was virtually halted during WWII. It amped up again during the Golden Triangle wars of the 1950s/60s. There was a huge supply in the French Connection era. Afghanistan became a major exporter during this time - particularly and the end of the Soviet era - and now Afghanistan and Mexico produce most of the opium for the heroin market.

It tends to be a push market - with a large supply, more junkies are created. As supply dries up, prices go up and junkies can't afford as much - they often get treated/die during these droughts (heroin withdrawal can be fatal.) Global demand for heroin tends to trail supply surges, which is normal for an addictive product.

Strangely enough, consumer electronics has a similar market pattern. One would think an elastic market - a luxury item at that, but once a new gadget is created, there is often a huge surge in demand (think iPhone and LED Televisions).

Posted by H-Town Tiger
Member since Nov 2003
61014 posts
Posted on 3/5/16 at 6:32 pm to
Stray Rounds: This is one of, if not the only episodes of the Wire I saw before i watched the series a couple of years ago on Amazon. I remember the kid getting shot and the cop with the hookers.

Lots of important stuff in this episode and Bunny Colvin makes his first appearance and so does Brother Mazone (he got more bodies on him than a Chinese cemetary)

Bodie tries to show some initiative by taking a corner to sell some more product and it ends in disaster. A dead kid will get the cops to crack down. He further fricks up not getting rid of the guns the right way. But he doesn't get rattled in the interrogation even when they bring in the bag. Lawyer. Of course Bodie doesn't crack he's a soldier.

One of overlooked themes of the show imo is the business side vs the gangsta side of the drug trade. Jimmy talks about it in season 1 with D asking why they can't sell the product without the bodies like everything else. Dee repeats that to the pit hoopers. Stringer the Avon represent the 2 sides. Stringer tells Bodie basically the same thing after the kid get killed. Prop Joe is saying it with his story about the H dealer ( as a side note, I love how Prop Joe pronounces heroin, herajuan? ) that no one knew about (cops, stick up boys) because he just sold product. Clearly the smart move is to do the deal with Prop Joe, in real business an organization like the Barksdale's would have no choice but to merge or get bought out.

Another good contrast is with the police. The slow deliberate work to break the case vs just charging in and arresting people with any charge. After the boy is killed the cops bust everyone on corners, the towers and the pit they can find. The Lt says its too bad it took a kid to get killed for them to do this and Bunny ask what are we doing? A cop that gets the uselessness of the drug war. Herc and Carver are bored out of their minds watching the warehouse and think they are not respected. Back at the detail they realize the docks/gangs are on to them because they tipped their hand. They pick up on some important stuff, getting Spiros cell # and when White Mike asks Sergi about a body he says "Did he have hands, did he have a face? Yes, then it wasn't us" 99% cops maybe would get that but Lester does and starts looking for unidentified bodies with missing hands/heads or faces.

Absolutely hilarious when Lester is asking Jimmy if he can do an English accent. Outside of spending 3 hours researching tides and winds to stick 14 bodies on Rawls, Jimmy screwing the hookers while waiting for the team to bust in is the most Jimmy moment of the season. I mean, could we really expect Jimmy to stop the girls and tell them he was a cop before things went to far? And Iove him typing up the report and Perlman is disgusted. Jimmy is so great

The last important development is seeing the Greeks have an FBI guy helping them. So the Columbians won't pay what they owe, they think it's just profit for the Greeks so screw them? Spiros says tells Eton the Greek will be smart. No gansta shite needed, he just tips his FBI guy about their crack shipment.

Overall a great episode.

ETA so much stuff I forgot about Stan Valchek getting pissed the detail is focused on stuff beyond Frank Sobotka. Burrell telling him, you asked for Daniels I gave you Daniels) and when he hears they raided a high brother, that if they see anything like a list of steady customers to throw it away. Awesome. Valchek is such a dick even Burrell doesn't seem as bad.
This post was edited on 3/5/16 at 6:48 pm
Posted by H-Town Tiger
Member since Nov 2003
61014 posts
Posted on 3/5/16 at 9:18 pm to
Storm Warnings:

Holy crap, we thought Ziggy was a goof and a frick up but never saw him as that dangerous One last attempt to do something on his own and he gets screwed over by Double G. Ziggy is a loser and he knows it and acts like, so it is no wonder no one respects him since he doesn't respect himself, but everyone pushes him around and he finally snaps. (another of the subtle details, when he gets back in his car after killing GG the meter shows Times UP) He's a strange character to me, I'm sure he is supposed to represent something I can't put my finger on. I do think his situation is similar to DeAngelo in that they are born into a family that's identity is tied to their job (the game for the Barksdale's and the Stevedore's Union for the Sobotka's). I still both show signs of intelligence that if they have been pushed in a different direction as kids, they may have been better off. That gets to the theme that people are stuck in their circumstance and can't get out (their wings are clipped) for Ziggy and Dee it ended in tragedy.

Prez re-doing the board was great. He has a real knack for the detail work, the paper chase, the seemingly tedious work of listening on the wires and getting the key info. Learning from the master, Lester Freemon. Prez is another example of a guy that is family, his father-in-law mostly (we don't know enough about his history but maybe his family) wants to push him in a different direction. In season 1 he is a hump and a frick up until he finds his calling. I think back to the beginning of S2 when he is telling Valchek how much he loved the detail and what he wants to do and all douchebag Valchek cares about is his freaking window. He lays out Roland's career path, Sgt exam which he'll pass and get a prime post thank's to Stan's pull, the Lt and a nice 9-5 M-F shift in a quiet district. Stan thinks that's the pinnacle, but Prez would be bored to death. Prez, unlike Ziggy and D gets a taste of his true calling and lashed out, so great when he punches Valchek. .

Pissed off that his detail has turned on him, Valchek brings the case to the Feds, who are interested this time because of the dock angle. Hilarious how the Feds show up and are stunned by the barren office with Bunk and Lester ready for a Western style showdown. The feds bring in some real equipment to work the case. God I hate Valchek even more than Rawls. On some level I think at least Rawls recognizes and appreciates good police work, Valchek couldn't care less.

When Fitz logs some info in, Koutis is notified right away. I don't get that. Does he have some notification that alerts him when any of the Greeks show up in the system. Anyway, he alerts the Greek and tells him there's nothing he can do, so the Greeks dump everything. Spiros leaves the diner while Herc and Carver argue over fries and they whine about not being respected. These meatheads are only good for raids and cracking skulls which sadly gets passed off as good police work. Jimmy and Bunk observe Eton and Spiros as they toss their phones in the bay. Funny to remember how new texting was, I don't really remember doing that until like 10 years ago, now it is BY FAR my primary means of communication

The cops are racing to get the warrants for the warehouse but Eton and Sergi are one step ahead.

Cheese confronts Brother and it doesn't go well for Cheese. Prop Joe wants no part of taking him on, but knows the perfect guy and he doesn't even have to pay him, Omar. We see Butchie's relationship with Omar, I know we saw Butchie earlier, but another character I didn't realize we first see in Season 2.
This post was edited on 3/5/16 at 9:20 pm
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
156604 posts
Posted on 3/7/16 at 6:57 am to
OP updated with this week's episodes....already on season three.
Posted by CocomoLSU
Inside your dome.
Member since Feb 2004
156604 posts
Posted on 3/7/16 at 6:58 am to
I didn't get a chance to watch the last eps this weekend, so I plan on doing that tonight and posting/responding to shite over the next day or two.

Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
95643 posts
Posted on 3/7/16 at 7:40 am to
quote:

Does he have some notification that alerts him when any of the Greeks show up in the system.


He must have set some alert to pop up. If he got himself attached to that part of the investigation or even a related one, that was possible even back then.

quote:

Herc and Carver argue over fries


Not necessarily this moment, but this does remind me - there are multiple analyses of how food is used in The Wire. It's another example of how this is filmed literature or that it has more in common with literature than most filmed media. Food and drink are motifs. If the characters are not working at their normal jobs, they are usually eating or drinking. Many times the food they eat is Baltimore-related, reinforcing the setting.

Here is an example of this:

Warning: Spoilers in this link as it spans the entire series

This post was edited on 3/7/16 at 7:41 am
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