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Posted on 7/19/10 at 8:16 am to Superior Pariah
I think it was all a dream, but I'm also kinda dumb.
Reasons (why I think it's a dream, not reasons why I'm dumb):
1) They make a emphasis on paradoxes/loops in the movie. We start the movie with old Saito, and the end is with old Saito. Loop.
2) Cobb says we never see the beginning of a dream. Did we ever really see the beginning of the movie? I don't think so. We just kinda ended up in the middle.
Those are just my thoughts though after one viewing.
Reasons (why I think it's a dream, not reasons why I'm dumb):
1) They make a emphasis on paradoxes/loops in the movie. We start the movie with old Saito, and the end is with old Saito. Loop.
2) Cobb says we never see the beginning of a dream. Did we ever really see the beginning of the movie? I don't think so. We just kinda ended up in the middle.
Those are just my thoughts though after one viewing.
This post was edited on 7/19/10 at 8:17 am
Posted on 7/19/10 at 8:21 am to Salmon
Interesting quote from Dave White, a movie critic whose writings I enjoy a lot: LINK
quote:
There will be some audiences who connect to all the "deep" and trippy ideas about dreams versus reality and they'll watch it over and over trying to figure out all the heavy meaning. (Those people will start to annoy you soon enough, the way all those Fight Club superfans did a while back.)
Posted on 7/19/10 at 8:55 am to Salmon
quote:
2) Cobb says we never see the beginning of a dream. Did we ever really see the beginning of the movie? I don't think so. We just kinda ended up in the middle.
I keep seeing people say that. And I get it...I do. But it's a movie. It HAS to start somewhere (i.e. in the middle of something). I think people are reading WAY into the beginning as a "how did I get here" moment. Really, the whole movie was a flashback of the first scene. It explained how Cobb got to the beach/Saito scene.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 9:31 am to Superior Pariah
quote:
Interesting quote from Dave White, a movie critic whose writings I enjoy a lot: LINK
I totally agree with this.
Just by the nature of the film and its philosophical themes, it's going to incite discussion about what is "real" and what isn't. And I'm sure Nolan did put many clues and red herrings into the story for this very reason, and he wrapped it up into a very neat package.
And this is a good thing. But at some point, people really are just over-analyzing when they start introducing all their own theories that are completely based on multiple assumptions.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 9:54 am to xenythx
watched yesterday on IMAX. very enjoyable film. My theatre was cheering the whole time. Great experience. On to batman 3 
Posted on 7/19/10 at 12:02 pm to Salmon
It's obvious the entire film wasn't a dream. So, when did he awake in this dream? Many say from when he wakes up on the plane, to the end, is a dream.
And it's said multiple times in the film that you can never really remember why or how you got to where you are when the dream starts - yet, when Dom wakes up, we see him look around, and then gives that very stern look to Saito, reminding him that he needs to hold up his end of the bargain. This indicates that,
1) Dom not only knows where he is, but
2) Understands and remembers why he is on the plane to begin with.
And here is the obvious flaw in thinking the entire movie is a dream -
Regardless of whether you think the entire film was Cobb's dream, limbo, whatever...we have instances where his totem fell, and instances where it remained spinning.
If the entire film is some dream state, the concept of totems is completely irrelevant, because they are supposed to reveal whether or not you are in fact dreaming.
Yet, Nolan ends the film with this concept. He ostensibly wants the audience to "guess" at the end as to whether Cobb was in a dream or in reality.
But if he was in a dream the whole time, again, there is no significance to the outcome of the totem, because we see instances of it falling over and continuously spinning in the alleged dream. This would make the make the ending completely insignificant.
And it's said multiple times in the film that you can never really remember why or how you got to where you are when the dream starts - yet, when Dom wakes up, we see him look around, and then gives that very stern look to Saito, reminding him that he needs to hold up his end of the bargain. This indicates that,
1) Dom not only knows where he is, but
2) Understands and remembers why he is on the plane to begin with.
And here is the obvious flaw in thinking the entire movie is a dream -
Regardless of whether you think the entire film was Cobb's dream, limbo, whatever...we have instances where his totem fell, and instances where it remained spinning.
If the entire film is some dream state, the concept of totems is completely irrelevant, because they are supposed to reveal whether or not you are in fact dreaming.
Yet, Nolan ends the film with this concept. He ostensibly wants the audience to "guess" at the end as to whether Cobb was in a dream or in reality.
But if he was in a dream the whole time, again, there is no significance to the outcome of the totem, because we see instances of it falling over and continuously spinning in the alleged dream. This would make the make the ending completely insignificant.
This post was edited on 7/19/10 at 12:06 pm
Posted on 7/19/10 at 12:11 pm to Cs
quote:Which happened before he explained his totem to a third party, and a architect no less. The whole point of a totem is that only you know its properties, but by revealing it to an architect, she could recreate the totem.
Regardless of whether you think the entire film was Cobb's dream, limbo, whatever...we have instances where his totem fell, and instances where it remained spinning.
Even if the totem falls, it could still be a dream because that's how she designed it. The movie is still open to the interpretation it is a dream. I think it can be either, but I prefer to think of it as a dream, and they created a new reality for him.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 12:13 pm to Cs
quote:
yet, when Dom wakes up, we see him look around, and then gives that very stern look to Saito, reminding him that he needs to hold up his end of the bargain. This indicates that,
1) Dom not only knows where he is, but
2) Understands and remembers why he is on the plane to begin with.
Assumptions. Probably why Nolan uses very little dialog. Too much would have revealed too much.
quote:
And here is the obvious flaw in thinking the entire movie is a dream -
Regardless of whether you think the entire film was Cobb's dream, limbo, whatever...we have instances where his totem fell, and instances where it remained spinning.
If the entire film is some dream state, the concept of totems is completely irrelevant, because they are supposed to reveal whether or not you are in fact dreaming.
The totem does not exist to know whether or not you are dreaming, it's primary function is to know whether or not you are in SOMEONE ELSE'S dream. In your own dream, the totem can act normal. Which supports either interpretation of the end.
quote:
Yet, Nolan ends the film with this concept. He ostensibly wants the audience to "guess" at the end as to whether Cobb was in a dream or in reality.
Then if you take your "definitive" interpretation of the movie, Nolan is a poor writer and this film mirrored the show Lost, in that, Nolan just threw a bunch of stuff on the screen merely to serve the effect and not to serve interpretations of the story.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 12:14 pm to Baloo
IT'S STILL REAL TO ME DAMMIT
Posted on 7/19/10 at 12:20 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
The totem does not exist to know whether or not you are dreaming, it's primary function is to know whether or not you are in SOMEONE ELSE'S dream
While this is true, and is actually said by Arthur, Ariadne goes up to Dom in the workshop that night after she made her totem (chess piece) and said, "It's an elegant solution for keeping track of reality."
This post was edited on 7/19/10 at 12:40 pm
Posted on 7/19/10 at 12:23 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Probably why Nolan uses very little dialog. Too much would have revealed too much.
...
They couldn't talk to each other at all on the plane, since Fisher was sitting right there. They bought out the entire first class cabin. Had they all started acting like they knew each other, FIsher would have gotten suspicious, especially since his private plane encountered "unexpected maintenance."
Notice how they don't talk to each other in the baggage claim area at the end either, since Fisher was right there with them, waiting to retrieve his bags.
And, notice how they didn't talk to each other before the plane took off. They all walked down the catwalk and didn't say one word to each other. When they were seated just prior to taking off, none of them even looked at each other.
This post was edited on 7/19/10 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 7/19/10 at 12:58 pm to Baloo
quote:
Even if the totem falls, it could still be a dream because that's how she designed it. The movie is still open to the interpretation it is a dream. I think it can be either, but I prefer to think of it as a dream, and they created a new reality for him.
But by the time Dom told Ariadne about the properties of his totem, he had already spun it and watched it fall.
Which gets back to the assumption that the entire film is a dream, and in fact they "created" this reality for him.
That means that everything we know about totems is completely inaccurate. If the entire film is a dream, then we have instances of his totem toppling, and instances of his totem continuously spinning. Arthur did say totems were used to make sure you weren't in someone else's dream, but Ariadne told Dom that night in the workshop after she made her totem that, "It's an elegant solution for keeping track of reality."
So, the totem either provides you with information that you're in your dream or someone else's, or that you're in a dream or in reality. Nolan chooses to fixate the final camera shot of this 2+ hour epic on Dom's spinning totem for a solid 10-12 seconds. Obviously, Nolan finds the outcome of the top significant, and wants people to question the ending.
But, going off of what Ariadne said, the totem is supposed to "keep track of reality". Throughout the film, we have instances of the top spinning, and instances of it toppling over. If the entire film is a dream, then what Ariadne said is completely irrelevant, and the ending, therefore, designed by Nolan to get people guessing, becomes completely insignificant as well. Because if the totem tells you whether you're in a dream or in reality, and we have instances of it toppling and continuously spinning in the film, but the entire film is a dream, then the entire concept of totems is completely falsified, and the intentionally "tense" moment at the end of the film with the top spinning on the table, and then beginning to wobble, becomes completely insignificant.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:03 pm to Cs
quote:I never said the entire film is a dream. I think the ENDING is a dream... that Cobb never wakes up and is now in a new reality while in our reality his brains are scrambled eggs. But I have not argued the enitre film is a dream. In fact, I've argued the opposite. It's why Ariadne is so interested in Cobb's dreams. So she can architect a dreamscape for him without his knowledge, using his memories. There's simply no other reason for her obsessive need to know so much about Cobb. She had to have a motive.
That means that everything we know about totems is completely inaccurate. If the entire film is a dream
The dream starts on the plane. Cobb just never wakes up. He gets to go "home".
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:03 pm to Cs
quote:
It's obvious the entire film wasn't a dream
It's not obvious, but you keep fighting the good fight, brother.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:09 pm to Cs
quote:But you're disregarding a lot of other dialogue explaining totems. Araidne and Arthur discuss the totem and Arthur explictly states that you can't let anyone touch it, so as not to let another person recreate the details. Yet Cobb tells Ariadne, an architect of all people, what makes his totem unique. It renders his totem worthless. Armed with that knowledge, she can build a dreamscape which includes his totem. she can get the detail right.
But, going off of what Ariadne said, the totem is supposed to "keep track of reality". Throughout the film, we have instances of the top spinning, and instances of it toppling over. If the entire film is a dream, then what Ariadne said is completely irrelevant,
The totem doesn't have any magical qualities about forging reality. It's just a reminder. But if someone else knows the details of your totem, it is worthless. Cobb's totem is absolutely worthless if he is in a dream desgined by Ariadne.
The entire concept of totems is NOT falsified. It's just that Cobb broke the rules of totems, and allowed an architect to know the properties of his totem, rendering it worthless. It's the totality of the circumstances.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:16 pm to Baloo
I think it's a dream, fwiw. Not sure either way though, and anyone that claims to know 100% without a doubt is confused by what they "know".
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:21 pm to NaturalBeam
quote:Agree completely. what I like is that the movie is certainly open to either intepretation. I think it says a lot about the viewer by what they PERCEIVE as reality, which also is a major theme of all of Nolan's films. I'm certainly not arguing that my interpretation is the only way to view the film.
anyone that claims to know 100% without a doubt is confused by what they "know".
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:22 pm to NaturalBeam
quote:
and anyone that claims to know 100% without a doubt is confused by what they "know".
This. If the movie is a closed loop and there is only a single interpretation as the poster above wants to think, I'm sure Nolan would view it as a failure.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:26 pm to Freauxzen
Freaux - I wanted to ask you about this.
How do you think Inception ties into the end of Memento? (MEMENTO SPOILERS BELOW)
The way that Leonard lies to himself repeatedly throughout the film to create a reality, which is no less real because he belives it. Leonard tells himself a lie that eventually becomes a truth to him because he has no way to track the lie. Is it any less real? This film is about planting an idea, much like in Memento, so is the idea any less real if its incepted by someone else? Is the dreamworld not real if one perceives it to be real? Cobb DID grow old with his wife, only to start over again. It happening in a dream didn't make it less real.
This movie is causing emto re-evaluate the "reality" themse in Memento.
How do you think Inception ties into the end of Memento? (MEMENTO SPOILERS BELOW)
The way that Leonard lies to himself repeatedly throughout the film to create a reality, which is no less real because he belives it. Leonard tells himself a lie that eventually becomes a truth to him because he has no way to track the lie. Is it any less real? This film is about planting an idea, much like in Memento, so is the idea any less real if its incepted by someone else? Is the dreamworld not real if one perceives it to be real? Cobb DID grow old with his wife, only to start over again. It happening in a dream didn't make it less real.
This movie is causing emto re-evaluate the "reality" themse in Memento.
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