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re: Official "Inception" Thread (***SPOILERS***)
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:32 pm to Baloo
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:32 pm to Baloo
quote:
How do you think Inception ties into the end of Memento? (MEMENTO SPOILERS BELOW)
The way that Leonard lies to himself repeatedly throughout the film to create a reality, which is no less real because he belives it. Leonard tells himself a lie that eventually becomes a truth to him because he has no way to track the lie. Is it any less real? This film is about planting an idea, much like in Memento, so is the idea any less real if its incepted by someone else? Is the dreamworld not real if one perceives it to be real? Cobb DID grow old with his wife, only to start over again. It happening in a dream didn't make it less real.
This movie is causing emto re-evaluate the "reality" themse in Memento.
Holy hell, I didn't even think about the connections between the two films since I have so much focused on the debates within Inception itself.
quote:
Is the dreamworld not real if one perceives it to be real?
This is the most important question you asked. I think that in either case, it doesn't matter who or what plants the thought. It's the thought that counts.
But this is why the end of Inception, for me, is still a dream. Same for Leonard. He (Leonard or Cobb) accepts his own reality even if he knows it is fake (for Leonard, it's framing Teddy, for Cobb it's looking at the kid's faces)
2
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:38 pm to Baloo
quote:
I never said the entire film is a dream. I think the ENDING is a dream... that Cobb never wakes up and is now in a new reality while in our reality his brains are scrambled eggs. But I have not argued the enitre film is a dream. In fact, I've argued the opposite. It's why Ariadne is so interested in Cobb's dreams. So she can architect a dreamscape for him without his knowledge, using his memories. There's simply no other reason for her obsessive need to know so much about Cobb. She had to have a motive. The dream starts on the plane. Cobb just never wakes up. He gets to go "home".
I actually thought about this after I viewed the film for the first time, thinking Saito was behind it all, as he could never really had the ability to clear Dom's charges with a 3 minute phone call.
However, if Ariadne really wanted Cobb to lose himself in limbo, and to never wake up, why does she practically beg Cobb to just leave Mal and ride the kicks back up with her and the rest of the team? She says things like, "You can't stay here", and "You have to come now."
It's Cobb ultimately who practically forces her to ride the kick back up without him. If Ariadne's ulterior motive all along was for Cobb to becomes lost in his dreams, why did she insist so passionately that he ride the kicks back up to reality with her and the rest of the team?
This post was edited on 7/19/10 at 1:40 pm
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:39 pm to Freauxzen
It's actually my reasoning for believing its an inception for (I hate to use the term "against") Cobb. He's lost grip on reality and his only grounding is his love for his children (his love for his wife is ultimately self-destructing for obvious reasons)
Saito wants the inception against Fisher, I think that's real, but the payoff for Cobb is, without his knowledge, an inception for his benefit to give him a new, positive reality in which he goes home and sees his kids. I also think Michael Caine is in on the inception of Cobb, which is why he suggests Ariadne, who I believe was already an experienced architect ("I've never seen anyone pick it up so quickly...")
I honestly believe this is still a hopeful and positive reading of the film. Even in Memento, the false world provides Leonard happiness and it IS real to him, even more real than ACTUAL reality. Here, Cobb finally has the comfort of knowing what is real and he gets to grow old without regret with his children. It DOESN'T MATER if its "real" or not, its real to Cobb. And that's enough. and he finally is happy. I think both "victims" of inception in the heist end up better off and happier. Just because its false, doesn't mean their happiness is not real.
Saito wants the inception against Fisher, I think that's real, but the payoff for Cobb is, without his knowledge, an inception for his benefit to give him a new, positive reality in which he goes home and sees his kids. I also think Michael Caine is in on the inception of Cobb, which is why he suggests Ariadne, who I believe was already an experienced architect ("I've never seen anyone pick it up so quickly...")
I honestly believe this is still a hopeful and positive reading of the film. Even in Memento, the false world provides Leonard happiness and it IS real to him, even more real than ACTUAL reality. Here, Cobb finally has the comfort of knowing what is real and he gets to grow old without regret with his children. It DOESN'T MATER if its "real" or not, its real to Cobb. And that's enough. and he finally is happy. I think both "victims" of inception in the heist end up better off and happier. Just because its false, doesn't mean their happiness is not real.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:41 pm to Baloo
quote:
Saito wants the inception against Fisher, I think that's real, but the payoff for Cobb is, without his knowledge, an inception for his benefit to give him a new, positive reality in which he goes home and sees his kids. I also think Michael Caine is in on the inception of Cobb, which is why he suggests Ariadne, who I believe was already an experienced architect ("I've never seen anyone pick it up so quickly...")
I honestly believe this is still a hopeful and positive reading of the film. Even in Memento, the false world provides Leonard happiness and it IS real to him, even more real than ACTUAL reality. Here, Cobb finally has the comfort of knowing what is real and he gets to grow old without regret with his children. It DOESN'T MATER if its "real" or not, its real to Cobb. And that's enough. and he finally is happy. I think both "victims" of inception in the heist end up better off and happier. Just because its false, doesn't mean their happiness is not real.
Good stuff. Exactly what I would get in line with.
Now let's throw Oldboy into the mix.
This post was edited on 7/19/10 at 1:45 pm
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:46 pm to Freauxzen
Can't talk about Oldboy without talking about Audition. I expect essays on "what is real?" by the end of the week. 
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:48 pm to Baloo
quote:
It DOESN'T MATER if its "real" or not, its real to Cobb. And that's enough. and he finally is happy
If it doesn't matter if it's real or not, then he could have given into his dream at any point and had both Mal and his children, but he ultimately decides against this. Ending with him back in a dream, that he now suddenly accepts, would undermine everything Cobb has been through and overcome. If all Cobb wanted was to be happy, he would have stayed with Mal and his children. But he didn't.
This post was edited on 7/19/10 at 1:52 pm
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:56 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
He (Leonard or Cobb) accepts his own reality even if he knows it is fake
Something he chose not to do just 10 minutes prior in the film, when he could have chosen to have not only his kids, but Mal as well.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 1:58 pm to Cs
No, he could not have stayed with Mal becuase he knew that wasn't real. That is a critical distinction. He accepts the final reality, whether it is a dream or not, because it feels real. It is not artificial like limbo was, a world that Cobb created and knew was nothing but fakery.
I'm using the Memento anaogy, and if you haven't seen Memento, well, spoilers like hell. Leonard avenges his wife's killer but doesn't remember it. It stops being real even though it was real. Leonard then keeps killing people but never remembering it. Finally, he sets in motion a trap for himself in which he kills someone who he thinks is John G, but really isn't. However, he accepts THIS as real because of the facts supporting it. Leonard doesn't accept the false killing of Dodd because he knows it is a lie. He does accept the false killing of Teddy because he does NOT know its a lie.
Same with Inception. What a double bill these two movies will make. I think they are companion pieces. Inception is merely the positive version of Memento.
I'm using the Memento anaogy, and if you haven't seen Memento, well, spoilers like hell. Leonard avenges his wife's killer but doesn't remember it. It stops being real even though it was real. Leonard then keeps killing people but never remembering it. Finally, he sets in motion a trap for himself in which he kills someone who he thinks is John G, but really isn't. However, he accepts THIS as real because of the facts supporting it. Leonard doesn't accept the false killing of Dodd because he knows it is a lie. He does accept the false killing of Teddy because he does NOT know its a lie.
Same with Inception. What a double bill these two movies will make. I think they are companion pieces. Inception is merely the positive version of Memento.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:02 pm to Baloo
And what about Ariadne? If she designed a dream-scape for Dom based on his memories, and wanted him to get lost in another dream, why did she insist so relentlessly that he leave Mal and ride the kicks back up to reality with her and the rest of the team?
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:07 pm to Babalugats
quote:
It became his. He started carrying it after she died. If he was still in a dream, it would have been spinning with no wobble or anything, but it is clearly starting to wobble. When the totum would spin in a dream, it would spin indefinitely.
Wrong. That is one of many inceptions that were "inserted" -- that the totem in some way became his. It was hers. She put it in the safe in the limbo house. A totem remains unique to the person to whom it belonged. Since it never was his, he couldn't have relied on it to establish if the world around him was real. Whatever it did and however it "acted" were all manipulated by his mind.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:12 pm to Chill Pill
quote:
Whatever it did and however it "acted" were all manipulated by his mind.
Throughout the whole film? Every time he used his totem, he manipulated it by his mind?
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:14 pm to Cs
She wanted him to wake up and go up the ladder into the 1st level dreamscape she created. She wants Cobb to get out of limbo, a false reality that he is rejecting, and into a new reality he will not reject.
she doesn't want him to get lost in a dream per se, she wants him to "go home" and find happinesss. A good designer will create redundancies to have multiple ptions for the user to determine what is the reality they accept.
she doesn't want him to get lost in a dream per se, she wants him to "go home" and find happinesss. A good designer will create redundancies to have multiple ptions for the user to determine what is the reality they accept.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:20 pm to Baloo
quote:
She wanted him to wake up and go up the ladder into the 1st level dreamscape she created. She wants Cobb to get out of limbo, a false reality that he is rejecting, and into a new reality he will not reject.
So, if she did get him out of limbo...if he rode the kicks back up with Ariadne and the rest of the team back up to level 1 in the van, from there, how does she get him into this "false reality"? He would be on level 1, and for this "false reality" to seem so real, they would have to go back much deeper into his subconscious - the opposite direction from which they just came. Such a plan would also leave Saito wasting away in limbo.
But this doesn't happen. We instead see Dom finally find Saito after years spent in limbo. Ariadne isn't in limbo at this point - how does she ensure Cobb accesses this "false reality" upon dying in limbo, when it has been previously established that dying in limbo wakes you up?
This post was edited on 7/19/10 at 2:22 pm
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:22 pm to Baloo
Unrelated... has anyone else noted the importance of names in this movie?
Ariadne is a Greek godess who was the mistress of the labyrinth and gave Thesus the thread so he would not get ost in the Minotaur's maze.
Arthur is the name of the great hero king of England's creation myth.
Eames was a designer who designed the Eames chair and had a philosophy regarding changing the nature of the banana leaf through design.
Yusuf is a prophet in the Koran whose story begins by awakening from a dream.
Mal is the French word for "bad"
Ariadne is a Greek godess who was the mistress of the labyrinth and gave Thesus the thread so he would not get ost in the Minotaur's maze.
Arthur is the name of the great hero king of England's creation myth.
Eames was a designer who designed the Eames chair and had a philosophy regarding changing the nature of the banana leaf through design.
Yusuf is a prophet in the Koran whose story begins by awakening from a dream.
Mal is the French word for "bad"
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:25 pm to Cs
Dying in limbo only kicks you up one level. It is the kick which knocks you up each level of the ladder. The key is getting Cobb to enter a dream without knowing its a dream. They can send him to his own dream from the van, where he is explictly shown not waking up. That's still two levels deep.
this keeps him in a permanent dream while at the same time protecting him from falling into limbo, which they don't want.
this keeps him in a permanent dream while at the same time protecting him from falling into limbo, which they don't want.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:25 pm to Baloo
quote:
Ariadne, who I believe was already an experienced architect
Who had to be instructed by Arthur on how to weave paradoxical architecture into her designs? Surely an experienced architect would know of such entry level designs.
We also see her coming back into the workshop, telling Arthur she had never experienced anything quite like it, and that it was just "pure creation".
Obviously, she was colluding with Miles and Saito, and acting like she was truly inexperienced?
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:27 pm to Cs
Right. she lets Arthur and Cobb teach her what she already knows. Letting Arthur in on it would be bad, as he'd likely tell Cobb. I imagine he's quite loyal.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:29 pm to Cs
Ariadne is a great potential architect because of her vivid imagination and penchant for designing and solving puzzles, in the same way that Eams's practical skills of forgery translate to something greater in the dream world.
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:30 pm to Baloo
quote:
Dying in limbo only kicks you up one level. It is the kick which knocks you up each level of the ladder.
Dying in limbo wakes you up, evidenced by the scene we were shown numerous times when Dom and Mal decide to kill themselves on the train track, and wake up in reality.
Since they were so heavily sedated, they needed two kicks to move up a level - one on the level they were currently on, synchronized with a kick from the level they needed to go.
Fisher falling off the building, coupled with the kick of the defibrillator brought him back to level 3. Ariadne falling off the building, coupled with the explosions in the snow fortress brought her back to level 3. The continued collapse of the building in level 3, coupled with their bodies falling in the elevator brought them to level 2.
Finally, the tail end of the free fall with the car hitting the water in level 1, combined with the falling sensation in level 2 brought them to level 1.
This is why Arthur wasn't kicked out of level 2 when the van first went off the bridge, and why Cobb wasn't kicked out of limbo when the explosives were planted in the hospital.
quote:
They can send him to his own dream from the van, where he is explictly shown not waking up
He's dying while under the effects of heavy sedation. The film spells out that if this happens, you go to limbo.
This post was edited on 7/19/10 at 2:39 pm
Posted on 7/19/10 at 2:34 pm to Cs
quote:
Dying in limbo wakes you up, evidenced by the scene we were shown numerous times when Dom and Mal decide to kill themselves on the train track, and wake up in reality.
But they weren't under Yusuf's sedative, which changed the rules. You need the kick to wake all the way up (well, the co-oridnated kick as you point out).
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