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Message
re: OFFICIAL - The Dark Knight Rises Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
Posted on 7/24/12 at 10:35 am to RollTide1987
Posted on 7/24/12 at 10:35 am to RollTide1987
quote:
But we don't really need to see that trust because of the events of the plot. Bruce Wayne has no choice but to trust Miranda Tate with the well-being of his company. You can call that a cop out but it's a legitimate point in the story. The only other person who has a legitimate shot at grabbing hold of the reins of Wayne Enterprises is Dagget, a man who is obviously in league with the main villain of the film. Miranda even comes out and says that Bruce has no choice but to trust her. He's backed into a corner so what else can he do? Not to mention we are shown Fox, a man who Bruce Wayne trusts with his life, pushing him to trust Tate.
I can go along with this.
quote:
I agree that their relationship wasn't fully developed but I am able to forgive that fact because their relationship really wasn't an essential plot of the film. None of his relationships with his female love interests were essential at all and so their lack of development didn't bother me at all.
You lose me here though. Her being the bad guy is the biggest moment of the film. And, the lack of development makes that moment extremely weak. In that sense, it was absolutely essential to the plot of the film.
2
Posted on 7/24/12 at 10:37 am to RollTide1987
quote:
But we don't really need to see that trust because of the events of the plot.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 10:41 am to hashtag
quote:
You lose me here though. Her being the bad guy is the biggest moment of the film. And, the lack of development makes that moment extremely weak. In that sense, it was absolutely essential to the plot of the film.
I can agree that her lack of development lessens the impact but I think that scene was for hard core fans of the comics anyway. Hell...the whole movie paid more lip service to the fans than the other two movies combined. I'm not saying it's the best way to go about it, but I personally didn't have a problem with the scene. Plus I saw that twist coming as soon as they cast Marion Cotillard in the role of some random board member named Miranda Tate. At least Henri Ducard, Liam Neeson's alias, was an actual character from the comics.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 10:43 am to Tiger Ryno
We really don't because the film isn't about the relationships of Bruce Wayne. The film is about Bruce Wayne. Lucius Fox is a man who Wayne trusts with his life. As soon as he's introduced in the film, he begins pushing Bruce Wayne to trust Miranda Tate because the clean energy project was the only way Fox saw to bring Wayne Enterprises out of the red.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 10:47 am to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
But honestly, there is only so much you can SHOW in a movie. You have to be TOLD some things. It's already a 2 hour and 45 minute long movie. There really isn't any time to show Miranda Tate and Bruce Wayne backstory.
Get rid of the entire football stadium scene. There's the extra time.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 10:51 am to Tiger Ryno
I'll just go ahead and tell you that despite what Lucas states about having the overall narrative in place he pretty much made things up as he went along. And it worked for the first two and wasn't the problem with the third but really fricking crushed the prequels.
Honestly those movies serve as definitive proof of how full of shite he was about knowing the whole story before he made movie 1
Just to be clear, I am a fan of Lucas and despite the prequels, red tails and crystal skull he will be remembered as a pioneer film maker
And
to you saying the prequels are more rewatchable than the dark knight rises
Honestly those movies serve as definitive proof of how full of shite he was about knowing the whole story before he made movie 1
Just to be clear, I am a fan of Lucas and despite the prequels, red tails and crystal skull he will be remembered as a pioneer film maker
And
to you saying the prequels are more rewatchable than the dark knight risesThis post was edited on 7/24/12 at 10:54 am
Posted on 7/24/12 at 10:59 am to hashtag
quote:
You lose me here though. Her being the bad guy is the biggest moment of the film. And, the lack of development makes that moment extremely weak. In that sense, it was absolutely essential to the plot of the film.
Again, having her in TDK could very easily given her away as being the bad guy for TDKR. Right? Assuming you mean pre-TDK development. 20 seconds wasnt going to change the development of her, it could have ruined it though.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 11:08 am to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
Again, having her in TDK could very easily given her away as being the bad guy for TDKR. Right? Assuming you mean pre-TDK development. 20 seconds wasnt going to change the development of her, it could have ruined it though.
okay then, spend some more time in TDKR to make us actually care about her prior to having her turn. Nothing was done to make us care that she was the villian. That was the single most important part of the movie, and there was zero reason to be surprised or even care.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 11:11 am to hashtag
quote:
That was the single most important part of the movie, and there was zero reason to be surprised or even care.
I personally think the scene with Batman hauling the neutron bomb out to sea was a little more important as it completed the most important character arc of the entire trilogy, but to each their own.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 11:11 am to hashtag
Yep. Completely agree slack. When she stuck the knife in him I didn't have the reaction to it I wanted to.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 11:13 am to hashtag
quote:
okay then, spend some more time in TDKR to make us actually care about her prior to having her turn. Nothing was done to make us care that she was the villian. That was the single most important part of the movie, and there was zero reason to be surprised or even care.
+1
I'd also reiterate that I didn't buy it either. One the most paranoid, smartest heroes being bamboozled by exposition?
Posted on 7/24/12 at 11:40 am to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
Again, having her in TDK could very easily given her away as being the bad guy for TDKR. Right?
I wish she would've been introduced in TDK, but considering its 8 years before TDKR, it would've been a little unbelievable that the head of the LoS sat around patiently for 8 years as an underling. Hindsight is 20/20 on this, but it would've been cool to have had her in Begins. Ras could've planted her on the Wayne Board as a sleeper agent in anticipation of Bruce joining her. When Bruce betrays the LoS, she remains a sleeper throughout the series and at the end of TDKR, she reveals that to Bruce after knifing him. Again, that's easy to say looking back.
Foley is the character who really should've been in all 3 movies. He should've been Gordan's dirty partner in Begins...one of Gordan's "questionable" hires at MCU in TDKR...and then his role in TDKR. I do wish the cop who the Joker held hostage in MCU before escaping would've been seen in that last battle in TDKR.
This post was edited on 7/24/12 at 11:47 am
Posted on 7/24/12 at 12:04 pm to Rohan2Reed
I wasn't shocked she was talia simply because it had been speculated on for a while, but I did get to a point in the movie where I thought maybe all of that speculation was wrong
Posted on 7/24/12 at 12:25 pm to FairhopeTider
quote:
Hindsight is 20/20 on this, but it would've been cool to have had her in Begins. Ras could've planted her on the Wayne Board as a sleeper agent in anticipation of Bruce joining her. When Bruce betrays the LoS, she remains a sleeper throughout the series and at the end of TDKR, she reveals that to Bruce after knifing him. Again, that's easy to say looking back.
Yea, easy to say now, but THAT would have made the turn very powerful. Instead we know Tate for what I am guessing is less than 30 minutes of screen time, but she is the mastermind. It just didn't have any teeth to it. Someone mentioned earlier making this two films, and I think that could have made this work much, much better. I don't know how I would split it, but it was just weird to go from The Dark Knight to Bruce Wayne is a recluse cripple.
quote:
Foley
Yea, who the hell was this guy? They sure gave him enough screen time to just die and not get his comeuppance. In the previous movies, people that dig on Batman or Bruce get a little smart-aleck pop for doing so. Foley is dead pressed to get the Batman, but he never gets his "hey dummy, I'm the good guy" line. Yea, he dies at the end, but that is not what I'm talking about.
Examples: in Begins Rachel keeps bashing Bruce for essentially not doing good works, and then he owns her with her same line at the end of the movie. "It's not who I am on the inside, but what I do on the outside." Paraphrasing.
Also in Begins, Lucius uses the d-bag CEO's line on him, "Didn't you get the memo?" And, Bruce uses the CEO's line on him too, "And I bought most of the shares - through various charitable foundations, and trusts, and so forth. Look, it's all a bit technical, but the important thing is that *my* company's future is secure."
In TDK, the blackmailing accountant is told by Fox, "Let me get this straight. You think that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands; and your plan, is to *blackmail* this person?"
this Foley guy never gets that kind of comeuppance.
This post was edited on 7/24/12 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 7/24/12 at 12:36 pm to Archie Bengal Bunker
quote:
Someone mentioned earlier making this two films, and I think that could have made this work much, much better. I don't know how I would split it, but it was just weird to go from The Dark Knight to Bruce Wayne is a recluse cripple.
Just imagine that throughout the entire trilogy, you thought Tate was an ally in the same manner as Fox or Gordan. Hell, even make her part of the love triangle with Rachel. Have Ras in Begins hint that he even infiltrated Wayne Enterprises.
Anyway, trilogies are usually the way to go, but this story should've been told in two parts with the first part ending with a broken Bruce laying in the pit watching Bane on TV at the football game. Two parts would've given Nolan a little more room to flesh out some of the storylines. I understand why some think that a two part finale wouldn't have worked though.
quote:
Yea, who the hell was this guy? They sure gave him enough screen time to just die and not get his comeuppance. In the previous movies, people that dig on Batman or Bruce get a little smart-aleck pop for doing so. Foley is dead pressed to get the Batman, but he never gets his "hey dummy, I'm the good guy" line. Yea, he dies at the end, but that is not what I'm talking about.
Foley was supposed to represent the transformation and growth of the Gotham Police. He went from selfish to sacrifice. I thought it was pretty cool when he showed up in his dress uniform and said "There's only one police force in this town." His death would've been a lot more powerful if his character arch would've been extended over three movies though.
This post was edited on 7/24/12 at 12:39 pm
Posted on 7/24/12 at 12:53 pm to hashtag
That's my point, building her up in TDK, even as Miranda not Talia, would only make it more obvious she was going to be villian. Might as well of lt Gordon at the end of TDK hand Batman a business card saying someone left this for you and it all it have on the front is "Talia." He made this more tie in to BB, not TDKR. He didn't have the TDKR written in 2005 and the timeline wouldn't have really worked anyway. I thought he handled that about as best as possible. Other than the bad acting on Cotillards part at her death. Should have done that over. Felt like it was the fishes fake death in Megamind. "It's cold it's hot, I see the light and darknes. Ughh ughh ahhh caahhh."
Posted on 7/24/12 at 1:01 pm to iwyLSUiwy
quote:
I'm totally with that being your issue. But honestly, there is only so much you can SHOW in a movie. You have to be TOLD some things. It's already a 2 hour and 45 minute long movie.
I get this and maybe Nolan was feeling pressure from the studio etc, but I want what I am being told to match what I am seeing unless the goal is to intentionally create that tension (see Breaking Bad).
Bruce's trust in Miranda is pivotal to the entire movie, as a result OUR belief in that trust is pivotal in keeping us in the story. We have to buy with 100% certainty Bruce truly trusted her as much as Alfred, for instance (this subtle distinction was glaring when coupled with Bruce and Alfred parting ways at the same point in the movie).
Storytelling 101 - show don't tell. If you are telling the audience crucial parts of the story there must be a better reason than simply the run time of the film.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 1:06 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Bruce's trust in Miranda is pivotal to the entire movie, as a result OUR belief in that trust is pivotal in keeping us in the story. We have to buy with 100% certainty Bruce truly trusted her as much as Alfred, for instance (this subtle distinction was glaring when coupled with Bruce and Alfred parting ways at the same point in the movie).
It was shown plenty, you just don't want to accept it.
They showed that she had been around for years. They showed that she spent a lot of her own money on the development. They showed that Bruce knew her well before the events in the movie began.
It is also easily understood that Bruce trusts Fox, who also trusts Miranda.
Just because you choose to not accept that as being shown that Bruce could trust her doesn't mean it's not shown.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 1:08 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
It was shown plenty, you just don't want to accept it.
No, there has to be an entire movie explaining this one thing in incredible detail
Posted on 7/24/12 at 1:09 pm to CGB Spender
For those talking about the 8 year gap, I think it helped show how Batman taking the fall for Dent helped clean up the streets.
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