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Message
re: OFFICIAL - The Dark Knight Rises Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:21 pm to Antonio Moss
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:21 pm to Antonio Moss
So Batman is a street artist now?
This is probably the biggest nitpick of them all. So what if Batman took the time to design a bat symbol out of gasoline? It's a freaking movie. And the scene was meant to inspire hope and courage in the hearts of Gotham's citizenry. He was telling them, with that bat symbol on the bridge, that all is not lost. I wasn't thinking about how he was able to find time to do that when I first saw this in the theater. Why? Because I knew what Nolan (and Batman) were trying to say in that scene. Nitpicking the fiery bat symbol on the bridge is just trying to find problems with the movie when similar improbable things have happened in every other movie of this genre.
Bruce Wayne Forgets to Do Proper Background Checks
The writers at Slashfilm really need to learn to pay attention during a movie. It was obvious, on my first viewing of this film, that the maids working at Wayne Manor at the beginning of the film were part of a catering firm that wasn't related to Bruce Wayne or Wayne Manor. Alfred says as much when he asks someone why the maids had been using the main staircase. So obviously Bruce Wayne did not hire Selina Kyle, the agency in charge of catering the party did. And as for Miranda Tate (aka Talia al Ghul), I think it's rather obvious how she could have slipped past Wayne's background check. For one thing, she's a member of the League of Shadows and therefore is skilled in the art of invisibility and deception. Plus, I highly doubt she would put on her resume: “skilled assassin trained by the League of Shadows, good with knives.” There's only so much a background check can tell about a person when a lot of that person's history is lost or made up. Considering she was born in an anonymous prison, I doubt very much of her early history is public knowledge. Seriously guys, go back and watch Batman Begins if you can't remember what the League of Shadows is all about. This is a trilogy, not just a stand alone movie.
And as for Selina Kyle and her “hacking” skills, it's one thing to hack into an electronic safe, it's quite another to delete an entire person's record from existence.
Why Does Bane Take a Break from His Master Plan to Ship Bruce Wayne Off to the Desert?
Does it really matter? I think it would have been dumber to just dump him in the prison without giving us a reason as to why Bane left Batman alive. I mean...he did just kick his arse. Why stop there? We, as an audience, have to be told why Bane was leaving Batman alive to rot in that prison. He didn't just want to beat Batman phsyically, he wanted to beat him psychologically as well. Bruce Wayne devoted the better part of his life to saving Gotham from destruction. Bane knows this and wants to break Bruce Wayne's spirit by destroying everything that he fought for. Sure, he could have had the random prisoners tell him that, but it means much more to have that come from Bane and not an extra.
How Does Bruce Wayne Get Back to Gotham?
Slashfilm asks how Bruce Wayne is able to travel back to Gotham in a matter of days with no resources whatsoever and yet fail to ask the same question in Batman Begins. In that film, Bruce travels the world for seven years with not a single cent in his pocket. It's never explained how he manages to get from place to place. And how he got back to Gotham isn't nearly as important as showing us that he has RETURNED to Gotham. And as to how he slipped back into the city once he arrived at the river? The dude was trained by a league of assassins whose main weapons were invisibility and deception. Bottom line, Bruce Wayne is a highly trained ninja who knows how to avoid being seen. Remembering back to his training in Batman Begins, Bruce Wayne has shown us that he can walk (and fight) on frozen ice without falling in. So it's not beyond belief that he slipped in over the ice in the dead of night. Once again, this is a trilogy of films, not just a stand alone movie.
This is probably the biggest nitpick of them all. So what if Batman took the time to design a bat symbol out of gasoline? It's a freaking movie. And the scene was meant to inspire hope and courage in the hearts of Gotham's citizenry. He was telling them, with that bat symbol on the bridge, that all is not lost. I wasn't thinking about how he was able to find time to do that when I first saw this in the theater. Why? Because I knew what Nolan (and Batman) were trying to say in that scene. Nitpicking the fiery bat symbol on the bridge is just trying to find problems with the movie when similar improbable things have happened in every other movie of this genre.
Bruce Wayne Forgets to Do Proper Background Checks
The writers at Slashfilm really need to learn to pay attention during a movie. It was obvious, on my first viewing of this film, that the maids working at Wayne Manor at the beginning of the film were part of a catering firm that wasn't related to Bruce Wayne or Wayne Manor. Alfred says as much when he asks someone why the maids had been using the main staircase. So obviously Bruce Wayne did not hire Selina Kyle, the agency in charge of catering the party did. And as for Miranda Tate (aka Talia al Ghul), I think it's rather obvious how she could have slipped past Wayne's background check. For one thing, she's a member of the League of Shadows and therefore is skilled in the art of invisibility and deception. Plus, I highly doubt she would put on her resume: “skilled assassin trained by the League of Shadows, good with knives.” There's only so much a background check can tell about a person when a lot of that person's history is lost or made up. Considering she was born in an anonymous prison, I doubt very much of her early history is public knowledge. Seriously guys, go back and watch Batman Begins if you can't remember what the League of Shadows is all about. This is a trilogy, not just a stand alone movie.
And as for Selina Kyle and her “hacking” skills, it's one thing to hack into an electronic safe, it's quite another to delete an entire person's record from existence.
Why Does Bane Take a Break from His Master Plan to Ship Bruce Wayne Off to the Desert?
Does it really matter? I think it would have been dumber to just dump him in the prison without giving us a reason as to why Bane left Batman alive. I mean...he did just kick his arse. Why stop there? We, as an audience, have to be told why Bane was leaving Batman alive to rot in that prison. He didn't just want to beat Batman phsyically, he wanted to beat him psychologically as well. Bruce Wayne devoted the better part of his life to saving Gotham from destruction. Bane knows this and wants to break Bruce Wayne's spirit by destroying everything that he fought for. Sure, he could have had the random prisoners tell him that, but it means much more to have that come from Bane and not an extra.
How Does Bruce Wayne Get Back to Gotham?
Slashfilm asks how Bruce Wayne is able to travel back to Gotham in a matter of days with no resources whatsoever and yet fail to ask the same question in Batman Begins. In that film, Bruce travels the world for seven years with not a single cent in his pocket. It's never explained how he manages to get from place to place. And how he got back to Gotham isn't nearly as important as showing us that he has RETURNED to Gotham. And as to how he slipped back into the city once he arrived at the river? The dude was trained by a league of assassins whose main weapons were invisibility and deception. Bottom line, Bruce Wayne is a highly trained ninja who knows how to avoid being seen. Remembering back to his training in Batman Begins, Bruce Wayne has shown us that he can walk (and fight) on frozen ice without falling in. So it's not beyond belief that he slipped in over the ice in the dead of night. Once again, this is a trilogy of films, not just a stand alone movie.
0
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:22 pm to Antonio Moss
Why Does a Prison Exist Where People Can Possibly Climb To Freedom, And By Doing So, Free All The Other Prisoners?
This is actually a legitimate point but I think, as Slashfilm points out, this prison exists more so as an idea than as something that could actually exist in the real world. Fans of the comics can probably see shades of the Lazarus Pits in these scenes with Bruce Wayne and the prison. The prison itself, in my humble opinion, is Christopher Nolan's idea of suffering and purification, a place to cleanse the soul. Whereas Bane believes that he has sentenced Bruce to a place with no hope where he can watch the destruction of his beloved city, and therefore the destruction of Bruce's soul, Bruce Wayne has actually found a place where he can be reborn out of the ashes of his failure in the sewers. He learns inside the pit what it means to be Batman again and re-discovers the fear that fed his passion to become the Caped Crusader. In the end, the prison becomes a lot like the Lazarus Pit from the comics because Batman is “resurrected” from the depths of despair and hopelessness. That's why I really don't agree with all the nitpicking about how easy it should have been to escape the pit. That doesn't matter as the prison itself is a symbol and not an actual place. In order to escape, Bruce had to re-discover and re-conquer the fear that made him become Batman in the first place. The bats flying out at him just before he jumps from the ledge is symbolic of what he has accomplished. He has re-discovered himself.
The Post-Bane Gotham Feels Totally Fake
I can agree with this sentiment but I didn't have much of a problem with it because the story was focused only on a select few of Gotham's citizens. Sure...it would have added a whole lot of realism to see the streets torn apart and full of trash, with people running around shooting each other a la “Children of Men,” but honestly that's not what the movie was about. The scenes we saw with Gordon, Blake, and the like did enough to show us what the ordinary people of Gotham were going through during Bane's occupation. I didn't need to see it in every shot on a massive scale like the people of Slashfilm did. I could imagine for myself it all happening off-screen. The movie was already epic enough, there comes a point when it goes from epic to overkill. I feel Nolan showed us just enough to know that the citizens of Gotham were not in a good way as the second act of the film unfolded. But that's just my personal opinion. You can believe what you want for that's what discussion is all about.
Are the Gotham City Police Department and CIA Really THAT Dumb?
As for the Gotham Police Department, I don't think anyone in charge thought that it was possible for Bane to trap them underground with a bunch of carefully placed explosives. No one knew the extent of his plans until it was already too late to stop them. That's not stupidity, that's just precaution. Gordon knew that Bane and his mercenaries were dangerous and he wanted to make sure he was able to eliminate that threat and bring them all to justice. What he hadn't counted on was just how large Bane's plan of attack really was. While you don't normally send that many cops against a threat in real life, one has to remember once again that this is just a movie and a guy like Bane probably couldn't exist in reality anyway. Batman definitely couldn't. This is just your classic example of nitpicking.
And as to the CIA, once again it's just a movie and things that happen in a movie cannot be compared against real life situations. Anyways, the CIA were told by a group of men who they clearly paid to grab Dr. Pavel that these were simple mercenaries who worked for Bane. What would give the CIA agent reason to think that Bane would be bold enough to get himself captured and put onto the plane? Plus, the guys in the plane DID notice the large plane coming up from behind them and positioning itself on top of them. Don't you remember the pilots looking up at it and the soldiers in the passenger cabin looking around as the turbulence rattled the plane? The only one who didn't notice something was amiss was the arrogant CIA douche who was too busy patting himself on the back for capturing Bane to notice. And anyways...what could they have done about it? They were in the middle of Uzbekistan, far from any help, and in a smaller plane that was clearly slower than the C-130 that was coming up from behind. Plus they had no reason to suspect a mid-air heist because those don't happen every day.
This is actually a legitimate point but I think, as Slashfilm points out, this prison exists more so as an idea than as something that could actually exist in the real world. Fans of the comics can probably see shades of the Lazarus Pits in these scenes with Bruce Wayne and the prison. The prison itself, in my humble opinion, is Christopher Nolan's idea of suffering and purification, a place to cleanse the soul. Whereas Bane believes that he has sentenced Bruce to a place with no hope where he can watch the destruction of his beloved city, and therefore the destruction of Bruce's soul, Bruce Wayne has actually found a place where he can be reborn out of the ashes of his failure in the sewers. He learns inside the pit what it means to be Batman again and re-discovers the fear that fed his passion to become the Caped Crusader. In the end, the prison becomes a lot like the Lazarus Pit from the comics because Batman is “resurrected” from the depths of despair and hopelessness. That's why I really don't agree with all the nitpicking about how easy it should have been to escape the pit. That doesn't matter as the prison itself is a symbol and not an actual place. In order to escape, Bruce had to re-discover and re-conquer the fear that made him become Batman in the first place. The bats flying out at him just before he jumps from the ledge is symbolic of what he has accomplished. He has re-discovered himself.
The Post-Bane Gotham Feels Totally Fake
I can agree with this sentiment but I didn't have much of a problem with it because the story was focused only on a select few of Gotham's citizens. Sure...it would have added a whole lot of realism to see the streets torn apart and full of trash, with people running around shooting each other a la “Children of Men,” but honestly that's not what the movie was about. The scenes we saw with Gordon, Blake, and the like did enough to show us what the ordinary people of Gotham were going through during Bane's occupation. I didn't need to see it in every shot on a massive scale like the people of Slashfilm did. I could imagine for myself it all happening off-screen. The movie was already epic enough, there comes a point when it goes from epic to overkill. I feel Nolan showed us just enough to know that the citizens of Gotham were not in a good way as the second act of the film unfolded. But that's just my personal opinion. You can believe what you want for that's what discussion is all about.
Are the Gotham City Police Department and CIA Really THAT Dumb?
As for the Gotham Police Department, I don't think anyone in charge thought that it was possible for Bane to trap them underground with a bunch of carefully placed explosives. No one knew the extent of his plans until it was already too late to stop them. That's not stupidity, that's just precaution. Gordon knew that Bane and his mercenaries were dangerous and he wanted to make sure he was able to eliminate that threat and bring them all to justice. What he hadn't counted on was just how large Bane's plan of attack really was. While you don't normally send that many cops against a threat in real life, one has to remember once again that this is just a movie and a guy like Bane probably couldn't exist in reality anyway. Batman definitely couldn't. This is just your classic example of nitpicking.
And as to the CIA, once again it's just a movie and things that happen in a movie cannot be compared against real life situations. Anyways, the CIA were told by a group of men who they clearly paid to grab Dr. Pavel that these were simple mercenaries who worked for Bane. What would give the CIA agent reason to think that Bane would be bold enough to get himself captured and put onto the plane? Plus, the guys in the plane DID notice the large plane coming up from behind them and positioning itself on top of them. Don't you remember the pilots looking up at it and the soldiers in the passenger cabin looking around as the turbulence rattled the plane? The only one who didn't notice something was amiss was the arrogant CIA douche who was too busy patting himself on the back for capturing Bane to notice. And anyways...what could they have done about it? They were in the middle of Uzbekistan, far from any help, and in a smaller plane that was clearly slower than the C-130 that was coming up from behind. Plus they had no reason to suspect a mid-air heist because those don't happen every day.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:22 pm to Antonio Moss
Most of the Hand-To-Hand Combat Is Terrible
Dude...you are complaining about something that has been prevalent in every single Christopher Nolan Batman movie and every single superhero movie in general. That's one reason why superheroes can't work in real life like this. There is no way one man can fight off six armed men without getting shot at. This is where I realize you are just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking because these types of things happen in most action films anyway. It's also noteworthy to point out the brawl between the cops and the mercenaries at the end of the movie. This wouldn't happen in real life. The very purpose of it in this film is nothing but symbolism. The brave actions of the Gotham police force in this movie, and in this scene in general, completes the arc of the GCPD. In “Batman Begins” the GCPD would not have stood up to Bane's mercenaries. They would have ran for the hills, hid themselves in their basements, and left the people of the city to fend for themselves. Even in “The Dark Knight” you had corrupt cops who betrayed central characters in the film. But here, in the final battle between good and evil, you have the GCPD standing bravely in the streets, walking slowly toward certain death. Batman has finally inspired them the way he hoped to inspire Gotham when he first began his crusade in “Batman Begins.” Yes, it's not realistic, but it's not supposed to be. While the title of this film is “The Dark Knight Rises,” more people than just the title character rise to the ocassion in the events of this film. The GCPD is certainly one of them.
Multiple Ending Syndrome
While I see your point we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I had no problem digesting the information Christopher Nolan threw at us in the last five minutes of the film. In fact, I thought it was almost perfect in its presentation. But this is just my opinion and there really is no reason to hit at a legitimate criticism. Just know I disagree with your opinion.
Dude...you are complaining about something that has been prevalent in every single Christopher Nolan Batman movie and every single superhero movie in general. That's one reason why superheroes can't work in real life like this. There is no way one man can fight off six armed men without getting shot at. This is where I realize you are just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking because these types of things happen in most action films anyway. It's also noteworthy to point out the brawl between the cops and the mercenaries at the end of the movie. This wouldn't happen in real life. The very purpose of it in this film is nothing but symbolism. The brave actions of the Gotham police force in this movie, and in this scene in general, completes the arc of the GCPD. In “Batman Begins” the GCPD would not have stood up to Bane's mercenaries. They would have ran for the hills, hid themselves in their basements, and left the people of the city to fend for themselves. Even in “The Dark Knight” you had corrupt cops who betrayed central characters in the film. But here, in the final battle between good and evil, you have the GCPD standing bravely in the streets, walking slowly toward certain death. Batman has finally inspired them the way he hoped to inspire Gotham when he first began his crusade in “Batman Begins.” Yes, it's not realistic, but it's not supposed to be. While the title of this film is “The Dark Knight Rises,” more people than just the title character rise to the ocassion in the events of this film. The GCPD is certainly one of them.
Multiple Ending Syndrome
While I see your point we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I had no problem digesting the information Christopher Nolan threw at us in the last five minutes of the film. In fact, I thought it was almost perfect in its presentation. But this is just my opinion and there really is no reason to hit at a legitimate criticism. Just know I disagree with your opinion.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:24 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Why Wouldn’t the SEC Just Overturn Bane’s Fraudulent Trades?
This was addressed in the conversation between Fox and Wayne afterwards. Fox tells him that the trades would be redacted for fraud but it would take months.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:27 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Most of the Hand-To-Hand Combat Is Terrible
I thought it was good. It wasn't Bruce Lee/Chuck Norris Return of the Dragon stuff, but at least you could tell what was going on. Not like the Bourne movies where the camera is in/aimed at someone's armpit the whole time.
This post was edited on 7/24/12 at 3:28 pm
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:31 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:why did the board act as if Bruce actually made the trades and forced him out?
This was addressed in the conversation between Fox and Wayne afterwards. Fox tells him that the trades would be redacted for fraud but it would take months.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:34 pm to hashtag
quote:
why did the board act as if Bruce actually made the trades and forced him out?
First, I would imagine that most of the board wanted Wayne gone because WE had lost so much money since the events of the TDK.
Second, the connection could easily have been lost on the board because 1) the SEC believed that no trading occurred because the wire was cut and 2) Wayne doesn't exactly tell the board that the fraudulent trades occurred when Bane hijacked the stock exchange.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:38 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
Why Wouldn’t the SEC Just Overturn Bane’s Fraudulent Trades?
After a little research, this complaint is now completely invalid.
Wayne apparently sold put options on the futures exchange, as mentioned by Daggett at the board meeting. From the SEC's website -
quote:
We sometimes receive questions and complaints about futures trading. A futures contract is an agreement to buy or sell a specific quantity of a commodity or financial instrument at a specified price on a particular date in the future. Commodities include bulk goods, such as grains, metals, and foods, and financial instruments include U.S. and foreign currencies. The SEC administers and enforces the federal laws that govern the sale and trading of securities, such as stocks, bonds, and mutual funds, but we do not regulate futures trading.
LINK
This post was edited on 7/24/12 at 3:44 pm
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:40 pm to Polar Bear
Boom?
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:43 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
He needed someone other than Fox to watch over
Why again is that? He'd been doing a pretty good job for eight freaking years
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:43 pm to Polar Bear
Yeeeaaahh those complaints were a little rushed. How bout you make sure at least a few of your so called mistakes are valid.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:46 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Why again is that?
I'd assume because Fox couldn't get the controlling majority for one reason or another. This may be an actual small plot hole, but I'd have to see it again to know for sure.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:46 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
This was addressed in the conversation between Fox and Wayne afterwards. Fox tells him that the trades would be redacted for fraud but it would take months.
Months literally passed in the movie and he was still broke at the end, unless the will reading was a lie.
SEC dropped the ball here Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:48 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
SEC dropped the ball here
SEC has no involvement with the futures exchange.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:50 pm to Polar Bear
quote:
SEC has no involvement with the futures exchange.
It's like he just ignores things that hurt his argument.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 3:52 pm to Polar Bear
quote:
SEC has no involvement with the futures exchange.
That and the entire city of Gotham was under occupation. I don't think they had time to investigate Bruce Wayne's case on the futures exchange.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 4:03 pm to RollTide1987
I'll give you this bro, you are vigilant! you are not the hero the Movie/TV board deserves, but you are what we NEED right now.
I can't wait to see this film
I can't wait to see this film
Posted on 7/24/12 at 4:20 pm to Polar Bear
quote:
SEC has no involvement with the futures exchange.
Someone investigates the fraud unless Fox was talking out of his arse.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 4:27 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Someone investigates the fraud unless Fox was talking out of his arse.
I think the exchange would do that.
Posted on 7/24/12 at 4:29 pm to theunknownknight
quote:
Someone investigates the fraud unless Fox was talking out of his arse.
Yeah, the CFTC, which is about 1/8th the size of the SEC.
The point is, for the last 20 or so pages, you've been on a rant, "SEC this, SEC that, the mighty SEC would have struck that down, etc", when in reality, you really seem to have no idea how any of it works.
This post was edited on 7/24/12 at 4:33 pm
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