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re: Obtuse Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice TD review thread (SPOILERS p5+)
Posted on 3/29/16 at 11:12 pm to Scoob
Posted on 3/29/16 at 11:12 pm to Scoob
As for the rest of the criticism, to me they're non-issues.
Bruce Wayne's dreams:
the past ones served just fine (for me) to re-establish that this was, in fact, Batman, the neurotic billionaire who dresses up as a bat to fight crime. I didn't need (nor did I want) a Ben Affleck version of Batman Begins, or what Sony did with rebooting Spider-Man. Give me the costume, the gadgets, Alfred, etc, and we're good, what I do want is to see him in action. We got that.
The future dreams: I took them as visions, possibly sent by someone else. His desert dream mirrors Lex Luthor's stated fears of Superman, and what Luthor hinted at with the senator, with the Devil-picture. Also what he told Batman at the end, in the prison cell. So when Luthor made those references, I immediately thought of Wayne's dreams. Something is coming down the road, after the team assembles. Much like the occasional Thanos cameos in Marvel movies, only they're also driving Batman to prepare, instead of just teasing the audience. So, they fit within the film, instead of as a post-credit scene (and I have to admit, I'm tiring of that trend).
The Flash "I'm too soon/Lois is the key" dream, it's clearly an easter egg, not sure of what. I saw it as Flash, the mask and red costume seemed to be the key (oh, and I already knew Flash can time-travel from the comics). Not 100% sure after one viewing if that was a dream, or a brief waking moment.
Bruce Wayne's dreams:
the past ones served just fine (for me) to re-establish that this was, in fact, Batman, the neurotic billionaire who dresses up as a bat to fight crime. I didn't need (nor did I want) a Ben Affleck version of Batman Begins, or what Sony did with rebooting Spider-Man. Give me the costume, the gadgets, Alfred, etc, and we're good, what I do want is to see him in action. We got that.
The future dreams: I took them as visions, possibly sent by someone else. His desert dream mirrors Lex Luthor's stated fears of Superman, and what Luthor hinted at with the senator, with the Devil-picture. Also what he told Batman at the end, in the prison cell. So when Luthor made those references, I immediately thought of Wayne's dreams. Something is coming down the road, after the team assembles. Much like the occasional Thanos cameos in Marvel movies, only they're also driving Batman to prepare, instead of just teasing the audience. So, they fit within the film, instead of as a post-credit scene (and I have to admit, I'm tiring of that trend).
The Flash "I'm too soon/Lois is the key" dream, it's clearly an easter egg, not sure of what. I saw it as Flash, the mask and red costume seemed to be the key (oh, and I already knew Flash can time-travel from the comics). Not 100% sure after one viewing if that was a dream, or a brief waking moment.
0
Posted on 3/29/16 at 11:12 pm to jeff5891
quote:
Sure, the coincidence of both Batman and Superman's mothers' being named Martha might just be due to an oversight in the DC writing room decades ago, but it made a basic connection that sparks Bruce Wayne's empathy towards the Man of Steel. Bruce Wayne realizes that Clark Kent has the best intentions, and like him, just wants to prevent his mother's death. While it was too late for Martha Wayne, this feeling ultimately led to Bruce Wayne returning to why he became Batman in the first place: not to punish criminals, but to prevent tragedies like the one that scarred him for life. After that encounter and witnessing Superman selflessness during the fight with Doomsday, Batman has a renewed faith in other costumed heroes
Posted on 3/30/16 at 12:09 am to Bard
quote:
Because in the 2 years he spent training to take Superman down, he never bothered to research Superman's motives?
He knew them already, he just didn't care to trust them. Bruce himself tells us that if there's even a 1% chance someone that powerful can go bad then he has to be taken down. Wellllll... that is until he finds out their mothers had the same first name and then minutes later he's saving Martha Kent and telling her he is a friend of her son.
Why did batman and superman stop fighting in the comics then become friends? Genuinely curious
Also superheros and aliens are running around and you're not buying the memory of batman's mom could stop him from killing supes... Really
Posted on 3/30/16 at 12:12 am to jeff5891
quote:
Sure, the coincidence of both Batman and Superman's mothers' being named Martha might just be due to an oversight in the DC writing room decades ago, but it made a basic connection that sparks Bruce Wayne's empathy towards the Man of Steel. Bruce Wayne realizes that Clark Kent has the best intentions, and like him, just wants to prevent his mother's death. While it was too late for Martha Wayne, this feeling ultimately led to Bruce Wayne returning to why he became Batman in the first place: not to punish criminals, but to prevent tragedies like the one that scarred him for life. After that encounter and witnessing Superman selflessness during the fight with Doomsday, Batman has a renewed faith in other costumed heroes
This post was edited on 3/30/16 at 12:13 am
Posted on 3/30/16 at 12:23 am to hawgfaninc
quote:
Like I was saying
I can guarantee most of the people in here had a hard time with literary studies.
Posted on 3/30/16 at 12:32 am to jeff5891
Got me before the edit.
Didn't feel like being too smug
Didn't feel like being too smug
Posted on 3/30/16 at 12:41 am to hawgfaninc
Posted on 3/30/16 at 1:07 am to Scoob
quote:
Dude, it's a comic book movie. it isn't the Godfather, it isn't some deep and introspective dramatic film achievement. It was never meant to be.
I don't think this is a pass for making a terrible movie, especially after Snyder was so outspoken about these characters being so mythological and epic and certainly not on the same level as Ant-Man. Which, frankly, Ant-Man was a better movie because of the work and effort put into making it more than just a comic book movie. Snyder thinks he can just trot out batman and superman with some nice visual effects and he will magically have an epic film.
He may not have been aiming for Godfather but he definitely thinks he can be as good as Chris Nolan. Why spend so much time on Batman? What else were those dream sequences if not... introspective? I disagree with this film not being meant to be deep, introspective, or dramatic. I think Snyder just failed miserably.
Since you did like Ant-Man as well, did you have to try convincing yourself it was a good movie?
quote:
It doesn't "introduce" a lot of characters, it has a couple seconds of footage of "meta-humans". I KNOW that's the Flash, Aquaman, and (I suppose) Cyborg, but those are merely hints that they exist.
quote:
It DOESN'T introduce Batman, because EVERYONE knows who Bruce Wayne is
quote:
it DOES introduce Wonder Woman, but ALL the film does
So I'm confused. If the point of the movie is to set up this world big enough for all these heroes, but the only real set up occurs in the dreams of one character, and beyond that it really doesn't do much, why can't we all just skip this movie and wait for the real introductions?
quote:
If you took it that way, you're wrong.
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Posted on 3/30/16 at 6:27 am to stuckintexas
Ok, you obviously didn't like it. I'm not going to argue back and forth with you to convince you otherwise. Myself, I did not find it to be a bad movie at all.
I enjoyed Ant-Man, but right now I'm not certain that I would say Ant-Man is the better movie. Ant-Man was smaller in scope and focus, in almost every way.
And not to defend anyone, but if you don't think Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are FAR more known and loved characters than Ant-Man, then I definitely don't know what to tell you.
Again, I found the plot coherent, I was able to follow what was going on. I had no issue in understanding Lex's argument that mankind needed a defense against Superman, Wayne's argument (colored by firsthand experience) that Superman was too powerful and must be dealt with (and that if anyone could do it, he could).
Superman's point of view that he was just trying to have a decent life and do the right thing (and that since he could, he should do more)... as well as the fact that with everyone bitching everytime he did something, he was sick of it and ready to just retire back to the farm.
I got Diana Prince's POV that Luthor was investigating her, so she was going to go check him/retrieve/delete the data; I also got her almost playful responses to Wayne when she was confronted about it. I also got her decision to get back off the plane when Doomsday appears.
All that made sense to me. The dreams didn't confuse me, nor did I find them to be too distracting.
As for characters,
I thought Cavill did an ok Superman, truer (in my own opinion) than Reeve, as far as the look.
I thought this particular Batman was the best I've seen yet, better than Nolan's, better than Burton's.
I thought Gadot was great as Prince/Wonder Woman. She was impressive, believable, and I thought she looked good... and after Marvel completely changed Scarlet Witch, I was concerned that Wonder Woman was going to end up looking entirely different too. I'm glad they found a way to pull off the look they did.
Lex... he was better than Ultron, the Mandarin, and Bane, in my opinion. Not "true to form", but he came across ok.
Doomsday- looked like a troll from LOTR. Ok, big monster, with heat vision and Hulk jumps. But like the troll fight in Fellowship of the Ring, I was satisfied with this. Wasn't any worse than a lot of the combat in Avengers, and better than in AOU.
I was afraid it was going to end up as bad as Green Lantern, and it wasn't. It was right about in the middle of the good comic book movies, in just my own opinion.
quote:
I don't think this is a pass for making a terrible movie, especially after Snyder was so outspoken about these characters being so mythological and epic and certainly not on the same level as Ant-Man. Which, frankly, Ant-Man was a better movie because of the work and effort put into making it more than just a comic book movie. Snyder thinks he can just trot out batman and superman with some nice visual effects and he will magically have an epic film
I enjoyed Ant-Man, but right now I'm not certain that I would say Ant-Man is the better movie. Ant-Man was smaller in scope and focus, in almost every way.
And not to defend anyone, but if you don't think Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are FAR more known and loved characters than Ant-Man, then I definitely don't know what to tell you.
Again, I found the plot coherent, I was able to follow what was going on. I had no issue in understanding Lex's argument that mankind needed a defense against Superman, Wayne's argument (colored by firsthand experience) that Superman was too powerful and must be dealt with (and that if anyone could do it, he could).
Superman's point of view that he was just trying to have a decent life and do the right thing (and that since he could, he should do more)... as well as the fact that with everyone bitching everytime he did something, he was sick of it and ready to just retire back to the farm.
I got Diana Prince's POV that Luthor was investigating her, so she was going to go check him/retrieve/delete the data; I also got her almost playful responses to Wayne when she was confronted about it. I also got her decision to get back off the plane when Doomsday appears.
All that made sense to me. The dreams didn't confuse me, nor did I find them to be too distracting.
As for characters,
I thought Cavill did an ok Superman, truer (in my own opinion) than Reeve, as far as the look.
I thought this particular Batman was the best I've seen yet, better than Nolan's, better than Burton's.
I thought Gadot was great as Prince/Wonder Woman. She was impressive, believable, and I thought she looked good... and after Marvel completely changed Scarlet Witch, I was concerned that Wonder Woman was going to end up looking entirely different too. I'm glad they found a way to pull off the look they did.
Lex... he was better than Ultron, the Mandarin, and Bane, in my opinion. Not "true to form", but he came across ok.
Doomsday- looked like a troll from LOTR. Ok, big monster, with heat vision and Hulk jumps. But like the troll fight in Fellowship of the Ring, I was satisfied with this. Wasn't any worse than a lot of the combat in Avengers, and better than in AOU.
I was afraid it was going to end up as bad as Green Lantern, and it wasn't. It was right about in the middle of the good comic book movies, in just my own opinion.
Posted on 3/30/16 at 6:57 am to Scoob
quote:
I was afraid it was going to end up as bad as Green Lantern, and it wasn't. It was right about in the middle of the good comic book movies, in just my own opinion.
You mind if I ask an honest question? For even those who seem to like the movie, the resounding line seems to be stuff like, "Well...it wasn't that bad" or at least muffled praise.
Why? Both why that's as much praise as you'll give it and WHY do you think WB/DC and Snyder failed to make a better movie when, as you say:
quote:
Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are FAR more known and loved characters than Ant-Man
I'd go much further than that and say that this trio falls in the Top 5 most recognizable heroes ever...prior to the Marvel movies introducing the regular public to characters like Iron Man, etc who were lesser known before. Even with Marvel's success, Batman and Superman are still arguably the Top 2...
Given they had these well known and epic heroes to work with, and clearly an unlimited budget (and three years from the release of MoS) what would have made this movie near the top of your comic book list, and why do you think they failed to do these things?
I know why those who thought it was a poor film think it failed...but why do those of you who defend it but only feel as though it falls mid pack feel that way?
Genuinely curious...as the most frustrating thing to me about this entire "debate" is that it feels so unnecessary. We've got a nearly 50 page thread about a comic book movie...clearly there was an audience primed to like it. There are very few idiots in here who are just here to piss on the grave of a comic book movie since hey hate the genre and are hoping they all fade away. With this much interest, to me anyway, this ought to have been a slam dunk...
Posted on 3/30/16 at 7:32 am to hawgfaninc
quote:
Why did batman and superman stop fighting in the comics then become friends? Genuinely curious
It depends on the storyline. In the very first one (World's Finest Comics) they just start off as being friends. In most other stories one or the other is mind-controlled.
quote:
Also superheros and aliens are running around and you're not buying the memory of batman's mom could stop him from killing supes... Really
Posted on 3/30/16 at 7:37 am to GeauxTigerTM
quote:quote:
Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are FAR more known and loved characters than Ant-Man
I'd go much further than that and say that this trio falls in the Top 5 most recognizable heroes ever...
In the world of comics they are known as "the trinity" (although there was a book series about it, I believe the title pre-dates it). Ant-Man is just known as... well... Ant-Man.
Posted on 3/30/16 at 7:40 am to jeff5891
quote:
so the mentally impaired can understand
frick off. We get what they were trying to do there but it was terribly executed and came off as very goofy. But sure everyone who didn't care for it is retarded.
Posted on 3/30/16 at 8:06 am to BilJ
quote:pretty obvious you didnt
We get what they were trying to do there
Posted on 3/30/16 at 8:53 am to stuckintexas
quote:
I don't think this is a pass for making a terrible movie, especially after Snyder was so outspoken about these characters being so mythological and epic and certainly not on the same level as Ant-Man. Which, frankly, Ant-Man was a better movie because of the work and effort put into making it more than just a comic book movie
Ant Man was an awful film as well, so much cheese in that damn movie lol.
quote:
Snyder thinks he can just trot out batman and superman with some nice visual effects and he will magically have an epic film.
This I agree with
Posted on 3/30/16 at 9:13 am to jeff5891
I think you may be the mentally impaired one. Again, I understand what he was going for, just because I think he did it in an incredibly stupid and goofy manner does not mean I didn't get it. Do I need to type this out again for you?
but again you're so super smart, you understand an incredibly nuanced film such as batman v superman and all of Zach Snyder's oh so subtle notions of symbolism.
but again you're so super smart, you understand an incredibly nuanced film such as batman v superman and all of Zach Snyder's oh so subtle notions of symbolism.
This post was edited on 3/30/16 at 9:14 am
Posted on 3/30/16 at 9:14 am to RLDSC FAN
In related news...
LINK
quote:
Hans Zimmer Retires From Superhero Movies
Composer Hans Zimmer has announced that he is through scoring superhero movies.
Zimmer, who most recently worked on Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, made his retirement from the genre known during an episode of BBC HARDtalk.
"I did Batman Begins with Chris [Nolan] 12 years ago, so The Dark Knight Trilogy might be three movies to you, to me it was 11 years of my life," he said. "[Batman v Superman] was very hard for me to do, to try to find new language."
LINK
Posted on 3/30/16 at 9:18 am to BilJ
quote:
but again you're so super smart, you understand an incredibly nuanced film such as batman v superman and all of Zach Snyder's oh so subtle notions of symbolism.
Now you get it. The people who don't like it, just don't understand. Apparently a degree in Literature is required and BvS is akin to War and Peace, The Brothers Kramazov, Ulysses. A film that is not only magnificent in scope, but subversive in theme. It is unparalleled in the history of film itself. Citizen Kane, 2001, please step aside for the new language of film.
Posted on 3/30/16 at 9:25 am to Freauxzen
quote:
Now you get it. The people who don't like it, just don't understand. Apparently a degree in Literature is required and BvS is akin to War and Peace, The Brothers Kramazov, Ulysses. A film that is not only magnificent in scope, but subversive in theme
To be fair, fanboys of all mediums say things like that. Posted on 3/30/16 at 9:32 am to RLDSC FAN
quote:
To be fair, fanboys of all mediums say things like that.
Certainly, just calling it as I see it. It doesn't really do anything for the discussion in any case. Especially with something like that scene (which I've already admitted, I actually don't mind it). The problem is Snyder's clunkiness and Lois Lane, Moment Killer. She ruined that scene, and many, many others.
I want that meme now. Her looking up screaming at Bats with "Lois Lane, Moment Killer" on it. To the Photoshop Cave!
This post was edited on 3/30/16 at 9:34 am
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