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5
Posted on 12/5/22 at 9:16 am to LordSaintly
manbaby incels that can't handle subversive narratives that disrupt their alpha male power fantasies + an antagonist/protagonist that they can't jerk off to.
Posted on 12/5/22 at 9:16 am to LordSaintly
They tried a lot of narrative stuff that sounded cool and innovative in theory, but just didn't work from an execution standpoint in the final product.
It's also VERY long and poorly edited - it's almost like they didnt cut anything at all from the script. You can feel the game's length - every sequence has you eventually going "ok when are we gonna start the next area."
The above 2 complaints are crazy for me to write out because the first game had some of the BEST narrative execution and BEST pacing of any game ever. Total flip flop. Game is technically marvelous though, the best animations and PerCap work I've ever seen, and the smartest AI (on the highest 2 difficulties)
It's also VERY long and poorly edited - it's almost like they didnt cut anything at all from the script. You can feel the game's length - every sequence has you eventually going "ok when are we gonna start the next area."
The above 2 complaints are crazy for me to write out because the first game had some of the BEST narrative execution and BEST pacing of any game ever. Total flip flop. Game is technically marvelous though, the best animations and PerCap work I've ever seen, and the smartest AI (on the highest 2 difficulties)
Posted on 12/5/22 at 9:23 am to Carson123987
Nah, TLOU2 is a far superior narrative than TLOU1.
***** MINOR SPOILERS FOR BOTH GAMES, SORT OF, BUT NOTING ANYWAYS ******
TLOU1, as good as it is, is basically The Road/Children of men + Zombies and with a great ending.
TLOU2 actually did some interesting things with subverting narratives and exploring themes of anger/tribalism/forgiveness in a way that had never been done in a game the way it was. One that I am very curious how they translate it to the screen while maintaining the impact of the dual narratives.
You are correct it is a rather large narrative and I actually think they could stretch it to two seasons if they wanted. In fact, I sort of think they should. It would be risky, but I think season 3 starting with Abby's perspective for half the season(starting at the beginning like game 2 did) and Ellie in the background as this unhinged assassin killing off characters you begin to contextualize would be the obvious way to mirror the way the game builds empathy for both sides and explores the way violence begets violence and the tragedy of it.
And hopefully, they film the whole thing together cause it would suck to wait 2 years between Season 2 and 3.
***** MINOR SPOILERS FOR BOTH GAMES, SORT OF, BUT NOTING ANYWAYS ******
TLOU1, as good as it is, is basically The Road/Children of men + Zombies and with a great ending.
TLOU2 actually did some interesting things with subverting narratives and exploring themes of anger/tribalism/forgiveness in a way that had never been done in a game the way it was. One that I am very curious how they translate it to the screen while maintaining the impact of the dual narratives.
You are correct it is a rather large narrative and I actually think they could stretch it to two seasons if they wanted. In fact, I sort of think they should. It would be risky, but I think season 3 starting with Abby's perspective for half the season(starting at the beginning like game 2 did) and Ellie in the background as this unhinged assassin killing off characters you begin to contextualize would be the obvious way to mirror the way the game builds empathy for both sides and explores the way violence begets violence and the tragedy of it.
And hopefully, they film the whole thing together cause it would suck to wait 2 years between Season 2 and 3.
This post was edited on 12/5/22 at 10:05 am
Posted on 12/5/22 at 9:42 am to LordSaintly
quote:
Can someone tell me why Last of Us 2 got so much hate? Critics liked it way more than everyone else.
It was deserving of neither the accolades it received from critics nor the hatred it received from supposed players on the internet.
The game itself was very good, but certainly not better than the original. No matter what Bronc says
Posted on 12/5/22 at 9:43 am to LordSaintly
quote:
Can someone tell me why Last of Us 2 got so much hate?
It gets hated on by people who didn't play it.
Without a major spoiler, all I can say is the game makes you hate a certain character and then play as that character for half the game to show their side and perspective.
The game was beautiful and had a fitting end for the characters. I enjoyed it a lot and will play both games again prior to the show
Posted on 12/5/22 at 9:49 am to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
It was deserving of neither the accolades it received from critics nor the hatred it received from supposed players on the internet.
The game itself was very good, but certainly not better than the original. No matter what Bronc says
You can quibble over which game was better narratively(but it's TLOU2), but more importantly, it was a vastly, vastly better actual game.
It still stands alone as one of the best third-person action games of the last 15 years. And the remake of the original only highlights how inferior the gameplay was in comparison, even with some upgrades it cant hold a candle to TLOU2
This post was edited on 12/5/22 at 9:50 am
Posted on 12/5/22 at 10:03 am to Bronc
bro you may want to put some spoiler tags on there
Posted on 12/5/22 at 10:04 am to Carson123987
Done
Really wish we had actual spoiler tags here though...
Really wish we had actual spoiler tags here though...
Posted on 12/5/22 at 10:13 am to Bronc
quote:
TLOU1, as good as it is, is basically The Road/Children of men + Zombies and with a great ending.
That's exactly why it's so good. I remember being excited for the original's release until I read the synopsis and thought "great, this shite again." And then I was blown away. It took extremely played out settings/archetypes/tropes and somehow managed to create a masterpiece through brilliant character and "little moment" writing. Even the big story beats are just amazingly executed. Ending is sublime. Pacing is among the best I've played in a game and it's the area where 1 just completely outclasses 2
Regarding how you think the show should handle 2's events, you're not far off. The narrative choices that didn't work in TLOU2 COULD have worked had they been arranged differently. I think the show is going to try and pull it off and may end up being a better final product from a writing standpoint
Posted on 12/5/22 at 10:21 am to dawgfan24348
quote:
Blink and you’ll miss it but both Ashley Johnson and Troy Baker are in this too.
Both are amazing voice actors.
Posted on 12/5/22 at 10:25 am to Bronc
quote:
manbaby incels that can't handle subversive narratives that disrupt their alpha male power fantasies + an antagonist/protagonist that they can't jerk off to.
I didnt hate the game. The stealth gameplay is some of the best ever, but you can can be critical of the narrative and pacing without being either of what you described in your post.
Posted on 12/5/22 at 10:28 am to ThuperThumpin
quote:
manbaby incels that can't handle subversive narratives that disrupt their alpha male power fantasies + an antagonist/protagonist that they can't jerk off to.
quote:
, but you can can be critical of the narrative and pacing without being either of what you described in your post.
He can't help himself
Posted on 12/5/22 at 10:29 am to Carson123987
quote:
Regarding how you think the show should handle 2's events, you're not far off. The narrative choices that didn't work in TLOU2 COULD have worked had they been arranged differently. I think the show is going to try and pull it off and may end up being a better final product from a writing standpoint
***** Spoilers for TLOU2 Potentially*****
Personally I think they pulled it off masterfully from a narrative perspective(the jarring back to square one in terms of reseting the gameplay progression a bit less so).
I cant think of a single game where I suddenly realized even several random people that just registered as no-name NPC's I was killing were actually these well-formed characters that suddenly made you see what you thought was the protagonist's actions in a completely different light. And as it progresses, drives home that both arent exactly wrong in their anger and desire for revenge, but that it ultimately only begets more violence and pulls everyone into a toxic and outward dehumanizing downward spiral individually and collectively. One of the few games that attacks head on the mindless violence games condition in the players, and the avatars carrying it out.
This post was edited on 12/5/22 at 10:31 am
Posted on 12/5/22 at 10:33 am to Carson123987
quote:
The narrative choices that didn't work in TLOU2 COULD have worked had they been arranged differently.
I agree with this. SPOILERS
Just my opinion but Joel's death and the reason why he was killed happened way too early. I think having Abby as an ally early on and then have the reveal of who caused her father's death and the rising tension as she is piecing the story together would have made for a better experience.
Posted on 12/5/22 at 10:33 am to ThuperThumpin
quote:
but you can can be critical of the narrative and pacing
"Muh Joel" and "Abby looks like a man" is not a good narrative critique, which is what the vast majority of whining was about. Which is what that poster's question is asking.
There are conversations to be had on the actual narrative as a wholistic story, or how it is paced within he gameplay, but that is not what a vast majority of the whining was about.
This post was edited on 12/5/22 at 10:35 am
Posted on 12/5/22 at 10:40 am to ThuperThumpin
**SPOILERS****
No offense, but that idea completely misses what the story was doing in terms of subverting expectations, thus shocking and putting you into the mindless rage Ellie feels and then showing you the larger social cost and flaw in that through Abby and her party's progressive humanization as characters and how those actions(starting with Joel) sets off cycles of retaliatory violence and deepened balkanizing, swallowing up innocent people in it's wake and crushing any hope for humanity or peace under it's boot.
No offense, but that idea completely misses what the story was doing in terms of subverting expectations, thus shocking and putting you into the mindless rage Ellie feels and then showing you the larger social cost and flaw in that through Abby and her party's progressive humanization as characters and how those actions(starting with Joel) sets off cycles of retaliatory violence and deepened balkanizing, swallowing up innocent people in it's wake and crushing any hope for humanity or peace under it's boot.
This post was edited on 12/5/22 at 10:59 am
Posted on 12/5/22 at 11:32 am to Bronc
SPOILERS
Did u feel Joel's actions were justified in killing in Jerry? Not a gotcha or anything just curious on your pov. What I liked about the ending was it let the audience make up its own mind about about his actions. It felt like the TLoU2 guided and had expectations on how the player would perceive the actions of the characters. Does that make sense?
Did u feel Joel's actions were justified in killing in Jerry? Not a gotcha or anything just curious on your pov. What I liked about the ending was it let the audience make up its own mind about about his actions. It felt like the TLoU2 guided and had expectations on how the player would perceive the actions of the characters. Does that make sense?
This post was edited on 12/5/22 at 11:53 am
Posted on 12/5/22 at 11:51 am to ThuperThumpin
***MAJOR SPOILERS***
****YOU ARE WARNED******
I think one aspect of what makes both games brilliant is that the answer to almost every act of violence is both yes and no.
The Joel/Ellie story is basically like a thought experiment turned into a story of the old philosophical question of: "If you could press a button and kill one innocent person to rid the world of a devastating disease that is swallowing up the world, would you do it?"
The story explores that question but injects "now, what if you knew and cared for the one being sacrificed?"
Yes, Joel is (maybe, depending on your philosophical beliefs)justified on one level in terms of protecting an innocent life from essentially human sacrifice for the greater good(though his actual justification is more selfish). And you can empathize with his choices. On the other hand, he is also killing a ton of innocent life himself on the way out. And as Part 2 explores, doing so against Ellie's own choices and robbing her of her own agency in the matter.
Part 2 naturally explores the question of: "what would a group of people that just had dozens of their members slaughtered do?" And the question is some would seek justice in a world without an organized process for it, I.E. vengeance.
And their reaction to that is also justifiable on one level(and not on another), as is Ellie's response, and Abby's response to her retaliation.
A major point of Part 2 is putting the player in the shoes of a tit for tat, eye for an eye dynamic.
Part 1 largely asks would you do what Joel did? Part 2 looks at the larger collective choice and its effect on Ellie, explores the consequences of Joel's choice, and how that has a cascading effect and path dependency with real human costs for everyone.
****YOU ARE WARNED******
I think one aspect of what makes both games brilliant is that the answer to almost every act of violence is both yes and no.
The Joel/Ellie story is basically like a thought experiment turned into a story of the old philosophical question of: "If you could press a button and kill one innocent person to rid the world of a devastating disease that is swallowing up the world, would you do it?"
The story explores that question but injects "now, what if you knew and cared for the one being sacrificed?"
Yes, Joel is (maybe, depending on your philosophical beliefs)justified on one level in terms of protecting an innocent life from essentially human sacrifice for the greater good(though his actual justification is more selfish). And you can empathize with his choices. On the other hand, he is also killing a ton of innocent life himself on the way out. And as Part 2 explores, doing so against Ellie's own choices and robbing her of her own agency in the matter.
Part 2 naturally explores the question of: "what would a group of people that just had dozens of their members slaughtered do?" And the question is some would seek justice in a world without an organized process for it, I.E. vengeance.
And their reaction to that is also justifiable on one level(and not on another), as is Ellie's response, and Abby's response to her retaliation.
A major point of Part 2 is putting the player in the shoes of a tit for tat, eye for an eye dynamic.
Part 1 largely asks would you do what Joel did? Part 2 looks at the larger collective choice and its effect on Ellie, explores the consequences of Joel's choice, and how that has a cascading effect and path dependency with real human costs for everyone.
This post was edited on 12/5/22 at 11:53 am
Posted on 12/5/22 at 12:29 pm to Bronc
quote:
doing so against Ellie's own choices and robbing her of her own agency in the matter.
Thats a good point.
quote:
A major point of Part 2 is putting the player in the shoes of a tit for tat, eye for an eye dynamic.
SPOILERS
Yea I get that and I playing as Abby went through the emotional arc that Druckmann had in mind. What I was suggesting would add another layer as if Abby was friend at first, she would have to deal with her own conflict with killing Joel.
It kinda reminded me of Alien 3 where these characters I loved are wiped out in the beginning so instead of engaging in the story and the themes I just spend time being pissed they are gone. IDK...in time I grew to appreciate that movie as well so maybe I will learn to appreciate TLoU2 story more as well too.
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