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Started By
Message
re: If Sonny Corleone doesn't get whacked, does the Corleone family win the war?
Posted on 4/13/18 at 2:42 pm to Hester Carries
Posted on 4/13/18 at 2:42 pm to Hester Carries
quote:
Seriously i love the films, but people talk about them like they are historical figures haha.
This board treats Star Wars A New Hope and Empire Strikes back like Godfather 1/2 and the rest of the SW movies like Godfather 3.
1
Posted on 4/13/18 at 3:44 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Sonny was like Uther Pendragon from Excalibur. Badarse, but also a meat-headed dummy that would eventually make his own people mad enough to kill him. Used that movie's version of "The Force" to get laid by another man's wife.
Uther was a great enough warrior to be Arthur's father, but didn't deserve to be King.
Excalibur-The death of Uther Pendragon on Youtube
This scene from the beginning of Excalibur shows a glimpse of Uther's Sonny-like personality.
Merlin giving Uther the sword is similar to Vito dying, and Sonny getting reign over the family.
But Uther, like Sonny, thought with his little head.
Not deserving of being King, or head of the family.
Uther was a great enough warrior to be Arthur's father, but didn't deserve to be King.
Excalibur-The death of Uther Pendragon on Youtube
This scene from the beginning of Excalibur shows a glimpse of Uther's Sonny-like personality.
Merlin giving Uther the sword is similar to Vito dying, and Sonny getting reign over the family.
But Uther, like Sonny, thought with his little head.
Not deserving of being King, or head of the family.
This post was edited on 4/13/18 at 4:02 pm
Posted on 4/13/18 at 3:48 pm to Hester Carries
quote:
Is there any other movie where people talk about fictional characters with the reverence of The Godfather?
Clearly you don't spend much time on the board if you ask this.
Posted on 4/13/18 at 4:06 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Depends on how long term you are looking.
When Sonny got whacked, both sides were in a protracted stalemate and something had to give.
Them missing on the hit would have meant more bloodshed between Carlo getting whacked immediately and Sonny redoubling his efforts to take out any exposed Five Families businesses like Tataglia’s whores.
It would have also meant Vito recovering longer, possibly keeping him alive an additional few years, along with Michael’s exile in Italy continuing and him possibly getting killed before they could negotiate a safe return for him.
Sonny may have ended up winning the war of the Five Families but he would have lost the peace, as he didn’t have the cunning to take over Vegas, smoke out Tessio and Carlo, or whack the heads of the Five Families.
When Sonny got whacked, both sides were in a protracted stalemate and something had to give.
Them missing on the hit would have meant more bloodshed between Carlo getting whacked immediately and Sonny redoubling his efforts to take out any exposed Five Families businesses like Tataglia’s whores.
It would have also meant Vito recovering longer, possibly keeping him alive an additional few years, along with Michael’s exile in Italy continuing and him possibly getting killed before they could negotiate a safe return for him.
Sonny may have ended up winning the war of the Five Families but he would have lost the peace, as he didn’t have the cunning to take over Vegas, smoke out Tessio and Carlo, or whack the heads of the Five Families.
Posted on 4/13/18 at 4:06 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Sonny would have ran the Corleone crime family into the ground, and it wouldn't have taken long.
Posted on 4/13/18 at 6:18 pm to Tigeralum2008
quote:
What I never understood was Michael killing Fredo.
What's not to understand?
Posted on 4/13/18 at 6:28 pm to Dr RC
quote:
This board treats Star Wars and Empire Strikes back like Godfather 1/2 and the rest of the SW movies like Godfather 3.
Fixed it. The people that think that way don't call the first Star Wars movie "A New Hope".
Posted on 4/13/18 at 6:40 pm to teke184
quote:
When Sonny got whacked, both sides were in a protracted stalemate and something had to give.
Nothing had to give. Like you said, a stalemate.
Would there have been a screw up eventually? Maybe.
quote:
It would have also meant Vito recovering longer, possibly keeping him alive an additional few years, along with Michael’s exile in Italy continuing and him possibly getting killed before they could negotiate a safe return for him.
Yes.
quote:
Sonny may have ended up winning the war of the Five Families but he would have lost the peace, as he didn’t have the cunning to take over Vegas, smoke out Tessio and Carlo, or whack the heads of the Five Families.
None of that would have been necessary. But the other families would have been getting that sweet nacro money.
Eventually, The Corleones would have lost.
Doesn't matter, because the story is about the
head of the family. From Vito to Michael.
Santino was a fighter, not a Sicilian. And Fredo was weak. Michael is the Don's true son.
Kind of like how Tyrion is Tywin's true son.
Posted on 4/13/18 at 7:26 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
What a lot of people tend to overlook is that Sonny, hothead though he might have been in personal matters, had been groomed to take over the Family from a young age. It's perfectly possible to be a hothead in one's private life and a professional when dealing with business. There's no reason to believe Sonny would have ignored the input from both his father and his capos. Even Tom could have been a helpful influence because it was Michael who decided Tom needed to be sidelined because he wasn't a wartime consigliere. Sonny might very well have kept him on.
The nature of the war changed with Sonny's death. Vito moved for peace to help save Michael's life, not necessarily because they were losing the war. It can even be posited that the loss of Sonny was a tactical blow that influenced Vito's decision over and above the personal one.
Edit because spell check decided consigliere simply HAD to be "configured" no matter how many times I changed it back.
The nature of the war changed with Sonny's death. Vito moved for peace to help save Michael's life, not necessarily because they were losing the war. It can even be posited that the loss of Sonny was a tactical blow that influenced Vito's decision over and above the personal one.
Edit because spell check decided consigliere simply HAD to be "configured" no matter how many times I changed it back.
This post was edited on 4/13/18 at 7:29 pm
Posted on 4/13/18 at 7:56 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
The old man was on the mend when it happens. He takes back control and figures his way through it. Long term is more of a question of how the succession happens and if Michael still takes over the family and if he does how Sonny would handle it.
Posted on 4/13/18 at 8:28 pm to randomways
The book goes into more detail but Sonny, regardless of his grooming, tended to use violence as his standard tool.
When they moved out to Long Island where their estate was, some scammers convinced one of their guys to let them in to work on the furnace, which they then dismantled and tried blackmail Vito into paying to have them reassemble it.
Vito used it as a test for Sonny. While Sonny did get them to put it back together, he did it by kicking the shite out of them. Vito was hoping for more of a response like Tom or Michael, where they got the job done by applying the right kind of pressure.
He had also been acting Don before, during a previous war when Vito had been shot. Sonny was a good general but he wasn’t really a peacetime Don because violence was his go to response.
When they moved out to Long Island where their estate was, some scammers convinced one of their guys to let them in to work on the furnace, which they then dismantled and tried blackmail Vito into paying to have them reassemble it.
Vito used it as a test for Sonny. While Sonny did get them to put it back together, he did it by kicking the shite out of them. Vito was hoping for more of a response like Tom or Michael, where they got the job done by applying the right kind of pressure.
He had also been acting Don before, during a previous war when Vito had been shot. Sonny was a good general but he wasn’t really a peacetime Don because violence was his go to response.
Posted on 4/13/18 at 8:44 pm to chinese58
quote:
Fixed it. The people that think that way don't call the first Star Wars movie "A New Hope".
Posted on 4/13/18 at 9:37 pm to teke184
Okay, this seems to be the thread for this.
I don’t get the sequence of events with Hyman Roth. He’s behind the very complex attempt on Michael’s life at Tahoe, but keeps begging him to do business with him in Cuba and meets with him more than once about business. That doesn’t seem to make sense to me and I’ve never really understood that whole plan.
Why constantly plan business deals with someone you’re trying to have killed? Why not just have him killed?
I don’t get the sequence of events with Hyman Roth. He’s behind the very complex attempt on Michael’s life at Tahoe, but keeps begging him to do business with him in Cuba and meets with him more than once about business. That doesn’t seem to make sense to me and I’ve never really understood that whole plan.
Why constantly plan business deals with someone you’re trying to have killed? Why not just have him killed?
Posted on 4/13/18 at 10:50 pm to alajones
quote:
Okay, this seems to be the thread for this.
I don’t get the sequence of events with Hyman Roth. He’s behind the very complex attempt on Michael’s life at Tahoe, but keeps begging him to do business with him in Cuba and meets with him more than once about business. That doesn’t seem to make sense to me and I’ve never really understood that whole plan.
Why constantly plan business deals with someone you’re trying to have killed? Why not just have him killed?
In case he failed to have Michael killed? It's not such a stretch, given that's exactly what happens. By approaching Michael as a business partner, he made it difficult for Michael to act on his suspicions. Notice the convoluted path Michael took to trying to take Roth out later? Just as Roth pretended he didn't have anything to do with the attempt on Michael's life, Michael pretended he didn't suspect Roth of making such an attempt, or at least that he bought Roth's little speech about Moe Green. It's all about the facade. Like the Goodfellas line, your killers come at you as friends. These are dangerous, dangerous people and beneath the veneer lurks a lot of sociopathy. But in order for that to happen, there has to be a veneer. They play nice in the open, and do their little stratagems in secret. If all else failed, they'd at least both make out financially on the Cuban deal. Or would have were it not for Castro.
This post was edited on 4/13/18 at 11:17 pm
Posted on 4/13/18 at 10:53 pm to teke184
quote:
The book goes into more detail but Sonny, regardless of his grooming, tended to use violence as his standard tool.
When they moved out to Long Island where their estate was, some scammers convinced one of their guys to let them in to work on the furnace, which they then dismantled and tried blackmail Vito into paying to have them reassemble it.
Vito used it as a test for Sonny. While Sonny did get them to put it back together, he did it by kicking the shite out of them. Vito was hoping for more of a response like Tom or Michael, where they got the job done by applying the right kind of pressure.
He had also been acting Don before, during a previous war when Vito had been shot. Sonny was a good general but he wasn’t really a peacetime Don because violence was his go to response.
Been a long time since I read the book, so, yeah, I don't know much of the backstory outside the movies. These details are in keeping with the overall ethos of the movie -- diplomacy and pressure before violence -- so it makes sense that Sonny pretty much had to die because he's proven himself unable to maintain the system that his father put in place.
Though it does make one wonder about Vito's judgment, since Sonny was clearly the heir apparent and would be doing exactly what you describe here once Vito passes.
Posted on 4/14/18 at 5:00 am to randomways
Sonny was the heir out of necessity and circumstance as much as anything else.
He was oldest, he had the ambition, and he was feared by his enemies.
Contrast that with the other kids.
Fredo wanted to be in the business but was completely unsuited for either management or muscle. His aptitude came down to running the hotel / casino business, which wasn’t particularly manly.
Tom had the qualities Vito wanted but was ineligible for it due to being Italian and adopted. Tom becoming a lawyer was him pretty much following Vito’s intended plan for Sonny, as a lawyer could steal more than ten guys with guns.
Tom wasn’t supposed to be the consigliere either, due to young age and Irish heritage, but Vito had to put him in that role when Genco Abbandando started a long bout with cancer and died the day after Connie’s wedding.
Michael had all the qualities that Vito wanted, like Tom, and was eligible to be Don because he was Italian, but he was rebellious as well as being Vito’s last great hope for a kid to succeed in legitimate society. He was also much younger than Sonny and Fredo.
At the time of Connie’s wedding, he was the black sheep for various reasons including his choice to enlist in WWII against Vito’s wishes.
None of them, including Michael, thought seriously about him being part of the family business until Michael’s response to the failed hit on Vito at the hospital.
Sonny was pretty much the only choice Vito had for the longest time. He tried to groom him as best he could but Sonny’s hotheaded nature got the best of him.
He was oldest, he had the ambition, and he was feared by his enemies.
Contrast that with the other kids.
Fredo wanted to be in the business but was completely unsuited for either management or muscle. His aptitude came down to running the hotel / casino business, which wasn’t particularly manly.
Tom had the qualities Vito wanted but was ineligible for it due to being Italian and adopted. Tom becoming a lawyer was him pretty much following Vito’s intended plan for Sonny, as a lawyer could steal more than ten guys with guns.
Tom wasn’t supposed to be the consigliere either, due to young age and Irish heritage, but Vito had to put him in that role when Genco Abbandando started a long bout with cancer and died the day after Connie’s wedding.
Michael had all the qualities that Vito wanted, like Tom, and was eligible to be Don because he was Italian, but he was rebellious as well as being Vito’s last great hope for a kid to succeed in legitimate society. He was also much younger than Sonny and Fredo.
At the time of Connie’s wedding, he was the black sheep for various reasons including his choice to enlist in WWII against Vito’s wishes.
None of them, including Michael, thought seriously about him being part of the family business until Michael’s response to the failed hit on Vito at the hospital.
Sonny was pretty much the only choice Vito had for the longest time. He tried to groom him as best he could but Sonny’s hotheaded nature got the best of him.
Posted on 4/14/18 at 8:58 am to Tigeralum2008
quote:
What I never understood was Michael killing Fredo.
that was essential to the story
- it left Tom as Michael's only brother (this is the mafia, his only brother has no blood ties)
-Fredo was gay.
When Michel finally realized it, he knew instantly that Vito had been aware and it was Tom's job to keep it secret. Vito/Tom arranged to send Fredo to Vegas, 'for his protection'.
Mike, originally thought that Vito's issues with Fredo's sexuality was him "banging two cocktail waitress at a time" not him being homosexual.
Micheal decided that Fredo had to go, when he admitted to going with John O to strip clubs. It was then Fredo started talking about the size of men's dicks when in Cuba, Michael made his decision.
Your Capo dei capi, you can't have your brother going to gay strip clubs with you the Jewish mob's underboss.
Posted on 4/14/18 at 9:05 am to alajones
quote:
I don’t get the sequence of events with Hyman Roth. He’s behind the very complex attempt on Michael’s life at Tahoe, but keeps begging him to do business with him in Cuba and meets with him more than once about business. That doesn’t seem to make sense to me and I’ve never really understood that whole plan.
Why constantly plan business deals with someone you’re trying to have killed? Why not just have him killed?
keep your friends close and your enemies closer
Posted on 4/14/18 at 9:09 am to TigerintheNO
I think you watched a different kind of movie
Posted on 4/14/18 at 10:16 am to ScottFowler
quote:
Michael is the Don's true son.
Kind of like how Tyrion is Tywin's true son.
In both instances in think each of the 3 children represent a part ofnthe father.
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